using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

**raidou** 2011-07-28, 21:05

for rulings

i remember reading tengu effect wont activate

but materials arent treated as being on field so it must be similar to returning to deck

i need to confirm this for cards with the text 'when that monster is removed from the field destroy this card '

**Faotemaru** 2011-07-28, 22:04

No, Xyz material monsters don't leave the field. When an Xyz monster is summoned, the monsters are literally stacked on one another, with the Xyz monster being on top. The monster under the Xyz card hasn't left the field until the overlay unit (The cards under the Xyz become 'Overlay Units' ... in the Japanese version, they are. They might be something else.) itself is used or the Xyz is defeated. When they are detached from the Xyz monster or die with the xyz monster, they never touch the deck unless said otherwise; they are sent to the grave.

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-07-28, 22:33

Overlay units aren't treated as being on the field. Also they are not treated as monsters. Monsters whose effect activate when they are removed from field will not trigger when used for Xyz Summon. Likewise monsters who would trigger themselves after being sent from Field To Graveyard like Sangan will also not activate. However the cards that simply require monster to be sent to grave for it's effect to trigger like Dandylion or Archfiend Of Gilfer will activate.

**LilyRainEve(TeWe)** 2011-07-28, 22:41

Julia Hedberg said the post in the konami blog where it stated tengu+zephyrus = utopia + tengu was reviewed by member of US R&D team. And therefore it's official enough to be followed until the real TCG official ruling come out.
so yeah, for now, TCG will stick to that it seems.

**CaiusTSR** 2011-07-29, 00:22

Look at Xyz material this way; they are in the void. The place between being a monster and being nothing. Therefor since something that doesn't exist can't have an effect the effect won't go off. In certain cases where the monster doesn't care where it is being sent form it gets it's effect. Sangan and Tengu care where they are being sent from so if it's not the field they don't go off. Dandy doesn't care where it is being sent from so he does get his effect.

**dest** 2011-07-29, 05:30

LilyRainEve(TeWe) wrote:Julia Hedberg said the post in the konami blog where it stated tengu+zephyrus = utopia + tengu was reviewed by member of US R&D team. And therefore it's official enough to be followed until the real TCG official ruling come out.
so yeah, for now, TCG will stick to that it seems.

That clearly contrdicts with a ruling we have that states, that Absolute Zeros effect doesn't trigger when used as a synchro material. Tengu wouldn't trigger either, just for the logic.

**Gorz** 2011-07-29, 06:57

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=6020

Read up on Tengu. He'll get his effect.

**l_T** 2011-07-29, 07:37

Gorz wrote:http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=6020

Read up on Tengu. He'll get his effect.

thats blasphamy Evil or Very Mad

tht better be changed cuz he's broke as it is

**Gorz** 2011-07-29, 09:02

l_T wrote:
Gorz wrote:http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=6020

Read up on Tengu. He'll get his effect.
thats blasphamy :evil: tht better be changed cuz he's broke as it is

They won't change a TCG exclusive card ruling... The only thing they can do is put him to 2 and keep him from being a giant floater..., But I don't think they will.

**SillyDude** 2011-07-29, 09:30

he has to be put at 2, or else i'll put him to death!

**Elliot Gale** 2011-07-29, 12:26

You guys probably shouldn't take an uninformed writer's random line in a tech article as gospel. It's not necessarily correct or incorrect.

Right now, current TCG logic agrees, but there is no specific, official ruling on the matter yet. It's under review.

**Gorz** 2011-07-29, 12:32

Elliot Gale wrote:You guys probably shouldn't take an uninformed writer's random line in a tech article as gospel. It's not necessarily correct or incorrect.

Right now, current TCG logic agrees, but there is no specific, official ruling on the matter yet. It's under review.

So your saying the Higher Judges at nats are wrong when they have a Konami Ruling for Tengu saying if I go into Utopia with him he's not going to come out again?? This has been decided... They can't have a card that would have 2 different rulings in one situation. Zero will get his effect... It's just that there wasn't any way to do it unless you "Level Ate" him 4 times... (Which nobody wanted to do)
Now with the Level 7 we are said to get in OCG pretty soon that won't be a problem and you can "Eat" him once.

**dest** 2011-07-29, 17:12

wasn't that already an official ruling, that zero wont gain the effect?

...

ok, just looked up, that wasn't official. I think we'll see soon enough^^

btw, even "higher judges" are only humans and can fail as such^^
i'd really feel safer if the ruling is finally in front of my eyes...

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-07-29, 17:54

Gorz wrote:http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=6020

Read up on Tengu. He'll get his effect.

That site also tried to Convince me that if I use Safe Zone on my opponent monster that monster won't be able to attack directly, things posted there shouldn't be considered "official"

**snow** 2011-07-29, 18:09

Gorz wrote:http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=6020

Read up on Tengu. He'll get his effect.

This^

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-07-29, 19:14

As I said things on that site should not ever be considered official, so far most logical solution is that Tengu would not activate.

Basically in the process of Xyz summon monsters stop being treated as monsters and all their effects that activate on the field disappear the same moment. So when Tengu is used as Xyz material it's effect can not trigger cause Tengu as a monster simply doesn't exist anymore and as such it's effects are also invalid. So in a way it is like returning to deck, monsters in deck don't have effects, likewise monsters used as Xyz materials also don't have their effects cause they cease being monsters

**Chiaki** 2011-07-29, 19:19

Bunny makes a good point. Nevermind my bias and hatred against Tengu.

Good job on becoming a Judge. o.O

**raidou** 2011-07-29, 23:54

i already knew about tengu ruling but thats no different for tengu than returning to deck the part i dont get is

what happens with cards like birthright or psychic tuner?

Select 1 Normal Monster from your Graveyard and Special Summon it in face-up Attack Position. When this card is removed from the field, destroy that monster. When that monster is removed from the field, destroy this card.

**LilyRainEve(TeWe)** 2011-07-30, 03:28

continous effect isn't applied, it works the same way like PlagueSprader Zombie being attached to an Xyz monster.
so, no, those card will not be destroyed, however, as for Psychic Tuning, I'd guess you'll still take the damage based on the summoned monster's level when Psychic Tuning is removed from field.

If a monster is Special Summoned with “Psychic Tuning”, and then that monster is destroyed while “Royal Decree” is active (so “Psychic Tuning” remains on the field), then after that “Royal Decree” is destroyed and “Psychic Tuning” is destroyed, “Psychic Tuning” ‘remembers’ the Level of the Special Summoned monster, and you would still take damage based on the monster’s Level when it was Summoned.[1]

**Pharaoh Atem** 2011-08-01, 02:06

Badass_Bunny wrote:As I said things on that site should not ever be considered official

Official sources treat the Blog as official, as it is reviewed by the top TCG sources before publication, as testified by those same official persons over on Facebook.

Your claim has no more ground to stand upon - Kevin Tewart, head of R&D himself, just took it out from under you.

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-08-01, 02:40

Pharaoh Atem wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:As I said things on that site should not ever be considered official

Official sources treat the Blog as official, as it is reviewed by the top TCG sources before publication, as testified by those same official persons over on Facebook.

Your claim has no more ground to stand upon - Kevin Tewart, head of R&D himself, just took it out from under you.

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=5971

Jason Grabher-Meyer wrote:But all that aside, one of the coolest things about Safe Zone is that you can attach it to your opponent’s monsters, too – not just your own. That means you can stop a monster from making a direct attack, and you can take things even further under the right conditions

Konami wrote:“Your opponent” is always the opponent of the player who controls Safe Zone.

As you were saying Mr.Tewart? It's official that they contradict their own rulings? I agree

Official or not it's not to be trusted...

On Topic I believe it was you who said this

Pharoah Atem wrote: The reason that this is supposedly nothing more than a baseless OCG-TCG ruling disagreement is because of Plaguespreader.

It has already been ruled conclusively that a Plaguespreader that would banish itself when removed from the field does not banish itself upon being treated as Xyz Material.

If treating a card as Xyz Material triggers Tengu's effect, it must make Tengu leave the field:

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field....etc

Logic says it shouldn't trigger Tengu, until an official Ruling on this is issued I suggest to follow logic.

**dest** 2011-08-01, 03:31

^
|
this

Rulings>Logic>Anything else
Even if that "anything else" comes from such a person, as I said somewhere, they are only human and can make mistakes^^

**Pharaoh Atem** 2011-08-01, 08:02

Badass_Bunny wrote:
Pharaoh Atem wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:As I said things on that site should not ever be considered official

Official sources treat the Blog as official, as it is reviewed by the top TCG sources before publication, as testified by those same official persons over on Facebook.

Your claim has no more ground to stand upon - Kevin Tewart, head of R&D himself, just took it out from under you.

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=5971

Jason Grabher-Meyer wrote:But all that aside, one of the coolest things about Safe Zone is that you can attach it to your opponent’s monsters, too – not just your own. That means you can stop a monster from making a direct attack, and you can take things even further under the right conditions

Konami wrote:“Your opponent” is always the opponent of the player who controls Safe Zone.

As you were saying Mr.Tewart? It's official that they contradict their own rulings? I agree

Official or not it's not to be trusted...

On Topic I believe it was you who said this

Pharoah Atem wrote: The reason that this is supposedly nothing more than a baseless OCG-TCG ruling disagreement is because of Plaguespreader.

It has already been ruled conclusively that a Plaguespreader that would banish itself when removed from the field does not banish itself upon being treated as Xyz Material.

If treating a card as Xyz Material triggers Tengu's effect, it must make Tengu leave the field:

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field....etc

Logic says it shouldn't trigger Tengu, until an official Ruling on this is issued I suggest to follow logic.

If you're recommending we go against the word of the guy who's in charge of all Organized Play this side of the Pacific, I have severe reservations about the trouble you're going to cause for anyone who tries to go to any current Organized Play events, to the point where I think you forget what our role here is in the first place.

We are to guide people to how things work and make it understandable. Our role is not to say "this doesn't make sense, so do what makes sense instead of what they say to do." DN, and for that matter, any other worthwhile thing online or off, MUST follow the rules when they're laid down by official sources no matter how contradictory they seem.

And this community, months ago, was settled as one that will be following TCG information in the event of ANY disagreement between KDE and KOJ. (Because, frankly, too few people in this community read moon runes for it to make sense to have the community side with the OCG: it is unintuitive as all hell to ask people to trust words they cannot read or speak.)

There's obviously an incongruity in how the company handles the matter; but the TCG has official rules handed down, for now, through Tewart, the Blog, the Starter Deck Guide, and so forth - and those rules, so far, stipulate that Tengu activates.

So, you come to me with these things, and I sit and wonder "why".

You have no ground upon which you may legitimately tell people to "do what they want" - DN does not support that ground, it instead follows the words of actual KDE employees where and when possible. You don't have the hierarchy on your side.

And you come to me to show the TCG sources' failings; For goodness' sake, I'm the guy who spreads news of such failings relentlessly, so telling me them does no good. Of course they make mistakes: but Tewart's testimony is that, right now, the Tengu situation is quite intentional.

So you have no ground upon which you may legitimately reccomend folks to defy Tewart here, and bringing me those quotes to remind me of things I've already typed is a waste of your time. So why do you bring that stuff?

**Pharaoh Atem** 2011-08-01, 08:05

dest wrote:^
|
this

Rulings>Logic>Anything else
Even if that "anything else" comes from such a person, as I said somewhere, they are only human and can make mistakes^^

Tewart, frankly, is a living, breathing, walking ruling document just by being head of R&D. So although he can make mistakes in communicating with Konami of Japan, we are obligated in organized play to follow his word to the letter.

It's like how HJs have final say of how cards work at a tournament, only writ on a much larger scale. Saying "ignore it, wait for rulings" at this point is absurd; the TCG's pulled the one thing that trumps ruling documents on this one.

Of special note is that Tewart's not just said "it works", but "it works and the rules are under review" - which is essentially code for "it could very easily not work later."

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-08-01, 20:23

I was not aware of Kevin Tewart himself posting that ruling at the time(Since I don't follow their facebook group which I should apparently start). However Konami guide site has already been wrong, one line of text about Tengu there which seemed wrong based on rulings already known, made me think it was wrong. I was just following the rulings that are already established in OCG(the ones that actually make sense) and that is something you can't blame for doing. If Kevin Tewart really wants to go and screw things up with Xyz rulings cause of Tengu than so be it. I myself was just following already established rulings, due to the lack of official ones posted by Konami.

**Pharaoh Atem** 2011-08-01, 20:26

Aye. Tewart's just something we're obligated to take as higher than the printed documents, because of how we can ask him questions about stuff the docs don't cover, and how he has the authority to give official answers on such.

Essentially, if he says something's official, it's official, and Tengu working this way in the TCG is official for now.

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-08-01, 20:31

Mind you linking me to where he said so? Just so I can follow there for future reference on rulings. BTW He is really screwing things up with Tengu

**Pharaoh Atem** 2011-08-01, 20:37

Adjudication Conflagration is where we spoke with the man directly about the issue.

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-08-01, 20:39

Ahh well, thanks anyway

**dest** 2011-08-01, 21:46

Pharaoh Atem wrote:Essentially, if he says something's official, it's official, and Tengu working this way in the TCG is official for now.

I had no idea that just one guy could be that important. Ok, so far I didn't care where rulings come from^^

Sorry for that then. Afk updating...

**HEBS721** 2011-08-03, 13:17

Pharoah Atem wrote: The reason that this is supposedly nothing more than a baseless OCG-TCG ruling disagreement is because of Plaguespreader.

It has already been ruled conclusively that a Plaguespreader that would banish itself when removed from the field does not banish itself upon being treated as Xyz Material.

If treating a card as Xyz Material triggers Tengu's effect, it must make Tengu leave the field:

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field.

but if treating one as Xyz Material makes Tengu leave the field, it must make Plague leave the field.

And if Plague leaves the field, it must banish itself.

But it doesn't banish itself.

So it can't make it leave the field.

So it shouldn't trigger Tengu.

But it triggers Tengu, so it must make Tengu leave the field....etc

If Tengu gets it's effect, then the reason Plaguespreader doesn't get removed is the same as when Imperial Iron Wall is on the field. It's not allowed to be banished. The Xyz isn't letting Plaguespreader leave the pseudo-space that it creates when summoned. It leaves the field and is then forced to stay with the Xyz until it gets used as material for an effect.

Also, what's Adjudication Conflagration?

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-08-03, 14:40

HEBS721 wrote:

If Tengu gets it's effect, then the reason Plaguespreader doesn't get removed is the same as when Imperial Iron Wall is on the field. It's not allowed to be banished. The Xyz isn't letting Plaguespreader leave the pseudo-space that it creates when summoned. It leaves the field and is then forced to stay with the Xyz until it gets used as material for an effect.

Also, what's Adjudication Conflagration?

I'm afraid it isn't that simple...however apparently this ruling is under revision and TCG people finally understand that Tengu getting it's effect would cause too much confusion in the future

**LilyRainEve(TeWe)** 2011-08-05, 00:12

Apparently KJF(Konami Judge Facebook) or Adjudication Conflagaration is saying sangan activate it's effect since now Xyz material is considered to be on the field, though it's no longer a monster.
wao.

**Pharaoh Atem** 2011-08-05, 20:50

HEBS721 wrote:
If Tengu gets it's effect, then the reason Plaguespreader doesn't get removed is the same as when Imperial Iron Wall is on the field. It's not allowed to be banished. The Xyz isn't letting Plaguespreader leave the pseudo-space that it creates when summoned. It leaves the field and is then forced to stay with the Xyz until it gets used as material for an effect.

Also, what's Adjudication Conflagration?

You're making up a story to fit the facts, which is not tolerable for judging purposes - the "Xyz isn't letting Plague leave the pseudo-space" line is nonsense.

This is because of how Plague's banishing functions - it isn't a banishing that sends Plague off the field and THEN banishes it: it just straight-up Banishes it when it would leave the field in any way.

Essentially, in your example, Plague would never make it under the Xyz in the first place - just the same as how Plague would never make it to the Grave if used as Synchro Material.

You're trying to build a bridge between the OCG's rules and the TCG's, which is impossible because they're all incompatible w/ one another.

**Kaiba** 2011-08-05, 22:03

Not sure why there is confusion about his after Tewart spoke up about it.

Xyz materials are on the field. Therefore, when detached, they are leaving the field. So when Tengu is detached, it leaves the field (obviously - you can see this with your very own eyes), so its effect goes off.

When Plaguespreader is detached, it leaves the field, and is banished.

When Sangan is detached, it is sent from the field to the Graveyard, thus allowing you to search.

It's simple.

Sponsored content

using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right

Re: using a monster for Xyz is the same as returning to deck , right