Oh no, My Hand!

The release of Wind-Ups changed yugioh greatly. It's now becoming a game where if the wind up player goes first and you go secodn and do not have Maxx C or veiler, its game over. Basically, wind-ups have made yugioh much more luck reliant. You can be the best player in the world and not open up with Maxx c and the other player doess open up with wind up combo and you lose. Is this what yugioh has turned into? I mean, yugioh was always luck reliant to some extent, but not to the level where its like "If I draw those cards, you lose automatically, and if i don't you win." There is no way to beat a sack-tastic Wind Up player. If you agree that Wind-Ups are ruining the purpose of yugioh, even though they are broken, post a reply!

Wind-Ups are the new Dark World, that's all I'm going to say.
Also, just wondering, why the hell do you have Maxx C being banned as an option? That's the best way to disrupt the loop.

Wind ups and rabbit going untouched in march means that march 2012 is going to be diceroll format,even moreso if they dont hit Heavy and/or 3 MST.

mido9 wrote:Wind ups and rabbit going untouched in march

You know you need to support such claims.

Why Maxx C? Those little bugs did nothing!

Roxzen wrote:

mido9 wrote:Wind ups and rabbit going untouched in march

You know you need to support such claims.

I was saying that IF they do get untouched etc,i dont know whether or not they will >.>

Btw,did the OP mean to write wind up rat in place of maxx c?

Roxzen wrote:

mido9 wrote:Wind ups and rabbit going untouched in march

You know you need to support such claims.

Nah, Mido doesn't need to support any of his claims. His knowledge is completely flawless and anyone who doesn't agree with him should quit YuGiOh because they are terrible and will never be all-knowing like he is.

mido9 wrote:

Roxzen wrote:

mido9 wrote:Wind ups and rabbit going untouched in march

You know you need to support such claims.

I was saying that IF they do get untouched etc,i dont know whether or not they will >.>

Btw,did the OP mean to write wind up rat in place of maxx c?

My bad then. I read that as if you're sure it is going to untouched.

Shooting Quasar Dragon wrote:I mean, yugioh was always luck reliant to some extent, but not to the level where its like "If I draw those cards, you lose automatically, and if i don't you win."

Tele-Dad was like that iirc. Nothing new.

They just need a ban list limit. No need for ban. :/

Hunter isn't the problem it is Zenmaighty, but banning him seems harsh so I would limit him.

Nobody enjoys playing against this awful deck.

guys, banning maxx c is a joke lol. maxx c is the ONLY hope we have

draonknight limiting hunter does nothing. My wind up deck only uses one hunter.

Limit rat.

Shooting Quasar Dragon wrote:draonknight limiting hunter does nothing. My wind up deck only uses one hunter.

I didn't say limit hunter, I said limit Zenmaighty.

GreyZekrom wrote:The problem isn't the poor Zenmaighty, that card was made with good special summon purpose, the real problem ism't hunter, that card sucked when it was released, the true problem are the players, the players and the player, and they'll be always the problem and since ya can't ban the players (ya can't, right?) ya've to deal with it

Let me answer this none sense....
Hunter and Zenmaighty are not the problem.....they are perfectly balanced if they weren't so broken together and with Rat.

when a card is super mediocre at first and then there's a Special Summon related card for the same Archetype created which breaks the card then one of the 2 cards is the problem. In this case it's Zenmaighty because, even if Hunter goes, it allows for a field of 3 Zenmaighty and a Wind-Up monster in one turn. It's the broken card in this case and should go to one!

Anyway, back to the topic, like a said above, Zenmaighty is the problem, Limit it, and the deck goes from super-duper-herp-derp broken to pretty balanced. The Deck would also go back focussing on Rank 3, 4 and 5, that instead of just Rank 3.

I have to admit, I feel the whole "draw this or die" feeling when I duel Wind-Ups, but I feel the same way with Inzektors or any other swarming deck. I think I'll start siding one or 2 Summon Limit. Anyone remember that card?

Spoiler:

That means no Tour Guide + Sangan Xyz.
No Wind-up Magician/Wind-up Shark, plus a lot of others.
Of course, if you play a Swarming Deck, then you're hurt too, meaning you have to strike hard and fast. Unless you run Darkness Neosphere and have a way to get him out.
I have NEVER seen anyone use this card at any time when I dueled.

And as GreyZekrom, deal with it. Almost every time I see/hear about a deck that's hard to deal with it's a swarm. (Not sure if Inzektors Swarm. I don't see it often) So find a card or cards that fit in your deck that limits summons. That or become a mind reader so you can go first. XD

Mind readers can't read minds over internet ._.
Besides, offline, we throw dice, so mind reading doesn't have anything to do with it.

I've actually had Summon Limit used on me before.
It honestly didn't do too much to me, but the deck I used was light on SS anyway.

It fails against zektors because 1 they'll blow it up with hornet and 2 they don't need to summon more than 2 monsters each turn anyway.
It also doesn't work against first turn wind-loop since you gotta set it first. Would be better to use stuff like veiler, maxx, or even dd crow so that you can activate first turn.
And first and foremost, it just doesn't work for most competitive decks, since they usually need the summons themselves.
I have seen Rivalry being used for relatively nice effect against winds, though.

I personally feel that Zenmaity is fine. Rat is too. Hunter sucks on its own. It's just that the combination owns.

But I do agree with the "deal with it". It's always that way. Deal with it or quit.

3E-hero neos wrote:when a card is super mediocre at first and then there's a Special Summon related card for the same Archetype created which breaks the card then one of the 2 cards is the problem. In this case it's Zenmaighty because, even if Hunter goes, it allows for a field of 3 Zenmaighty and a Wind-Up monster in one turn. It's the broken card in this case and should go to one!

Wow... Okay, first of all, the only reason you can get a field of 3 Zenmaighty is Rat. Rat is the problem, not Zenmaighty. Without Rat, both of them are balanced. It's Rat that needs to get hit, not Hunter or Zenmaighty. Rat is the catalyst for every kind of loop WUs have that involves either of the aforementioned.

I don't see how people can look at TGU, says its broken, then look at Rat, and say it is balanced. Rat is a TGU that works with the grave and is archetype specific. Without Rat, Zenmaighty does nothing more than maybe get another Exceed out, stil leaving you with a weak 1500 ATK/DEF monster that will easily get run over.

Hunter makes the loop work. Banning him crushes the loop without crushing Wind-Ups. The Loop is unacceptable. Conclusion? Even though he sucks alone, ban Hunter anyway.

Rat can be traced as the root, but I think hitting Rat would severely cripple the arch, so I am against that. I can stand their ridiculous SS powers, but getting my hand stripped before I've been allowed to participate is unacceptable.

Saturn wrote:

3E-hero neos wrote:when a card is super mediocre at first and then there's a Special Summon related card for the same Archetype created which breaks the card then one of the 2 cards is the problem. In this case it's Zenmaighty because, even if Hunter goes, it allows for a field of 3 Zenmaighty and a Wind-Up monster in one turn. It's the broken card in this case and should go to one!

Wow... Okay, first of all, the only reason you can get a field of 3 Zenmaighty is Rat. Rat is the problem, not Zenmaighty. Without Rat, both of them are balanced. It's Rat that needs to get hit, not Hunter or Zenmaighty. Rat is the catalyst for every kind of loop WUs have that involves either of the aforementioned.

I don't see how people can look at TGU, says its broken, then look at Rat, and say it is balanced. Rat is a TGU that works with the grave and is archetype specific. Without Rat, Zenmaighty does nothing more than maybe get another Exceed out, stil leaving you with a weak 1500 ATK/DEF monster that will easily get run over.

storyteller wrote:Limit rat.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Limiting rat doesn't kill the SS ability completely. You can still get out 2 rank 3 xyzs, including 1 zenmaity, almost instantly, and it also doesn't completely kill the hand destruction, since it'll still be able to send 1 or 2 cards from opponent's hand to grave. I think it's a nice compromise.

It's either got to be Rat or Zenmaighty to finish this. I'm with Zenmaighty due to being the one that searches the deck, but hitting Rat also makes the loop shorter than hitting Zenmaighty.

The only problem I see with that is while it would still leave the deck intact to be playable, taking those out instead of banning hunter would kill the deck on a competitive level. Why would you do that when the only things making WU "Broken" in direct comparison to other meta decks is there second-to-none hand control?

Vincent wrote:The only problem I see with that is while it would still leave the deck intact to be playable, taking those out instead of banning hunter would kill the deck on a competitive level. Why would you do that when the only things making WU "Broken" in direct comparison to other meta decks is there second-to-none hand control?

No it wouldn't .-.
Wind-Ups don't need 3 Zenmaighty to be competitive. Nor do they need 3 Rat. They're a rank 3 Xyz spam deck. They only need one of them.

Hunter is not broken at all. It's sacrificing field presense to get rid of your opponent's hand presence. Rat and Zenmaighty are bot +1s from the Graveyard and Deck, respectively.

I've seen decks that can function perfectly fine with 1 Zenmaighty or 1 Rat.

Function, but compete with say current inzektor decks and whatnot without looking obviously hampered?

Hunter is the card that tips Rat and Zenmaighty over the scale, and turns them from being excellent summoning engines into ungodly discard engines. If anything, ban Hunter and then semi Rat and/or Zenmaighty to bring the deck in line while still letting have the powerful engine that put it on the map to begin with.

Except Hunter doesn't break anything .-.
Letting Rat or Zenmaighty stay just allows them to loop a bunch of Rank 3s anyway.
If a deck can't survive due to the limit of a single card, the deck should probably die anyway.

The looping of rank 3s isn't the problem it's just what they were designed for D=

It's being able to discard 5 cards from your opponent's hand on turn 1 without destroying your own hand advantage that is the problem.

Without Hunter, that doesn't happen, and they go back to simply looping Rank 3s.

I could live with them looping rank 3s.

Vincent wrote:The looping of rank 3s isn't the problem it's just what they were designed for D=

It's being able to discard 5 cards from your opponent's hand on turn 1 without destroying your own hand advantage that is the problem.

Without Hunter, that doesn't happen, and they go back to simply looping Rank 3s.

Without Rat or Zenmaighty at 3, the loop just fizzles.
Limit one of them and the loop turns into crap while still giving them the summon power they like.

Why would we limit Hunter when Hunter isn't broken?

It's like saying Big Fish should be banned cuz of the old Fish OTK.

The summoning engine is still pretty powerful with either rat or zenmaity limited, in my opinion.
I vote to keep zenmaines because it keeps the engine running more smoothly.

Hunter is a bad card and doesn't need to be hit.

Just drop Zenmaity to 1 and wind-ups should be balanced.

Well, now I have changed my mind due to TGU > Bus > Magician > Shark > Magician doing just as well.

Ban Hunter.

ban hunter and do nothing else, that will still leave Wind-Ups on a competitive level while not letting it discard 5 cards on first turn. If you loop 3 zenmaightys on the first turn you are still good to go because they will probably kill one of the zenmaighties, leaving the other 2 zenmaighties to use their effs next turn and spam. Combine that with cards like Wind-Up factory and you will have a competitive deck that doesnt win by dice roll.

The point that I had been trying to get across for all this time has now been realized and addressed.

Other common meta options swarm just as well as WU with 3 Zen and 3 Rat (maybe not JUST as well, bvut well enough that it is still a fair competition at that point), meaning the only PROBLEM is Wind-Ups having this 5 card discard. Hunter is the engine to that. This means the "best" course of action is to remove him without affecting any of the other powers Wind-Ups currently enjoy.

Vincent wrote:The point that I had been trying to get across for all this time has now been realized and addressed.

Other common meta options swarm just as well as WU with 3 Zen and 3 Rat (maybe not JUST as well, bvut well enough that it is still a fair competition at that point), meaning the only PROBLEM is Wind-Ups having this 5 card discard. Hunter is the engine to that. This means the "best" course of action is to remove him without affecting any of the other powers Wind-Ups currently enjoy.

Except you did not provide an explanation other than "IT'S HUNTER'S EFFECT THAT'S BEING ABUSED"

What made me change my mind was somebody bringing up a perfectly plausable way to do this even with Zenmaighty or Rat at one.

I said to limit Zenmaighty because I assumed it would put an end to the loop without touching Hunter, but somebody has brought to my attention that it doesn't due to a card I'd been ignoring named Daigusto Emeral.

I didn't really think I needed anything other than it's Hunter being abused. If Hunter is the card being abused, it's the card you should take action against, since hitting it will be the most "pain-free" way of doing things.The way that would do the least damage to the arch.

Fixing issues with archs/decks while doing the least damage to that arch is, in my opinion, how all bans should be approached. Limiting Zen/Rat is definitely not the least harmful way to stop Hunter Loop. Banning Hunter is.

That's why not targeting Hunter just because he has little purpose outside of the loop has continued to ring as a bad argument to me; it doesn't change the fact that targeting anything else involved in the loop would hamper WUs more than needed, making them a worse choice.

The goal when banning something connected to a loop such as this would be to ban the card(s) that are vital to the loop but least likely to affect other archs or style associated with the card(s) in question. Taking action against either Rat or Zenmaighty due to the Hunter loop would clearly be doing things backwards.

i feel the need to state that for all the people who think that rat or carrier should be hit rather than just banning hunter, damn it rlly cmon think, if u hit rat or carrier rather than banning hunter u kill the legitimate competitive uses of the archetype, why should wind-up players be stuck with friken hunter if carrier or rat get hit, !@#$ that ban hunter i'd much rather that, i myself prefer the otk than playing that damned hunter loop, so much more fun and honestly doesn't make me feel like i am cheating my opponent out of a win at all (same can't be said for that miserable hunter loop -.-).

You guys are really overstating the power of a loop that depends on up to 5 cards to even get going, and eats Warning hard, versus, say, the Dragonfly Loop which just steamrolls past stuff like that.

To top it all off, a lot of decks are moving away from hand based power, into Grave based power.

DefiniteOtaku wrote:You guys are really overstating the power of a loop that depends on up to 5 cards to even get going, and eats Warning hard, versus, say, the Dragonfly Loop which just steamrolls past stuff like that.

To top it all off, a lot of decks are moving away from hand based power, into Grave based power.

That's akin to saying people overstate the power of a turn 1 Dustshoot, even though it's limited now. Until March 1st, upon which it's being banned again.

If they draw the proper setup, you're not running infernities, and they ended up going first, you've already lost.

Plus, as someone mentioned earlier, isn't there another way of getting the loop?


EDIT:

@ Megaman, minus the lack or grammar, that is very similiar to what I was saying earlier.

When trying to fix a loop, you ban whatever silences the loop while doing the minimum damage possible to the related competitive archs. If that's not your method, you're doing it wrong. In other words, banning anything but Hunter to fix this loop is dragging WUs unnecessarily below the other current meta contenders in capability. "Fixing the Loop" means ban hunter.

I need to address this here and now, there are two versions of the loop, and I'm very familiar with both.

There is the pure loop, which you seem to be blowing way up even though its simply overcome, and then there's the Tech loop, which is purely for softening up the opponent for a win condition.

One of my major issues is that you seem to be pinning a huge amount of whining on the power of the pure loop, which in of itself leaves the player of the loop with little options afterwards, and is really a more lopsided attempt at a win condition then the Tech loop, since topping anything that can Revive/Stall/Overpower the tech loops cards isn't as hard as it seems. This loop also loses to numerous cards and is only truly viable first turn.

Now the Tech loop is another beast of itself, since Its usually only displayed in a pure WU deck, and is actually a footnote to a win condition, and fails to all the same things as the first, save for one thing. Tech Loop will ignore your Veiler/Maxx C/Shadow Imprisoning Mirror/Warning and steam roll on to other powerful combos, and is far more consistent then the pure loop version, purely because it has the power to back up the loop.

Is it powerful?
Oh god yes.
Is it truly broken?
I think not, since its easily defeated by cards that are mained in most decks today.

The real issue we need to observe is if a loop that is only truly viable on a first turn baises is actually nigh unstoppable as you guys seem to think.

Opening shark + Magician is enough to put 9200 dmg on the board thanks to the loop.

Yep,an opening hand OTK.

Limit zenmaighty and drop the dmg to 6200.

mido9 wrote:Opening shark + Magician is enough to put 9200 dmg on the board thanks to the loop.

Yep,an opening hand OTK.

Limit zenmaighty and drop the dmg to 6200.

mind explaining to me how that is in any way shape or form broken? and have you seriously payed attention to any of the other posts in the thread or are you just attempting to troll?

Btw I have used the hunter loop before. while I understand you may argue it's not broken cause it leaves the wu player with very limited options as for what they can do afterwards. It still makes it so their opponent loses their hand and has to rely on topdecks to win, and they probably will win with a good enough topdeck considering the hunter loop uses up the carriers and kills the offensive potential of the deck, which is why I personally didn't build around the loop.

Saturn wrote:Wind-Ups are the new Dark World, that's all I'm going to say.

But Wind-Ups top unlike Dark Worlds.

Shooting Quasar Dragon wrote:The release of Wind-Ups changed yugioh greatly. It's now becoming a game where if the wind up player goes first and you go secodn and do not have Maxx C or veiler, its game over. Basically, wind-ups have made yugioh much more luck reliant. You can be the best player in the world and not open up with Maxx c and the other player doess open up with wind up combo and you lose. Is this what yugioh has turned into? I mean, yugioh was always luck reliant to some extent, but not to the level where its like "If I draw those cards, you lose automatically, and if i don't you win." There is no way to beat a sack-tastic Wind Up player. If you agree that Wind-Ups are ruining the purpose of yugioh, even though they are broken, post a reply!

lol....lol. your making it sound like wind-ups are tele-dad....

Shooting Quasar Dragon wrote:"If I draw those cards, you lose automatically, and if i don't you win."

Exodia says hi!

DefiniteOtaku wrote:I need to address this here and now, there are two versions of the loop, and I'm very familiar with both.

There is the pure loop, which you seem to be blowing way up even though its simply overcome, and then there's the Tech loop, which is purely for softening up the opponent for a win condition.

One of my major issues is that you seem to be pinning a huge amount of whining on the power of the pure loop, which in of itself leaves the player of the loop with little options afterwards, and is really a more lopsided attempt at a win condition then the Tech loop, since topping anything that can Revive/Stall/Overpower the tech loops cards isn't as hard as it seems. This loop also loses to numerous cards and is only truly viable first turn.

Now the Tech loop is another beast of itself, since Its usually only displayed in a pure WU deck, and is actually a footnote to a win condition, and fails to all the same things as the first, save for one thing. Tech Loop will ignore your Veiler/Maxx C/Shadow Imprisoning Mirror/Warning and steam roll on to other powerful combos, and is far more consistent then the pure loop version, purely because it has the power to back up the loop.

Is it powerful?
Oh god yes.
Is it truly broken?
I think not, since its easily defeated by cards that are mained in most decks today.

The real issue we need to observe is if a loop that is only truly viable on a first turn baises is actually nigh unstoppable as you guys seem to think.

To be honest, by this clarification the loop I'm more concerned about would be the tech loop as you define it.

The difference with the tech loop is that it will only consume about half your hand, and kill off 4 cards in the first turn, but leaves you with the some hand advantage, and the ability to have a backrow.

DefiniteOtaku wrote:The difference with the tech loop is that it will only consume about half your hand, and kill off 4 cards in the first turn, but leaves you with the some hand advantage, and the ability to have a backrow.

Unless they have tourbus/pot of avarice :/