Dueling Network Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

+10
byak
{EX} TheVoid
Burn3r
Neo1715
CaiusTSR
Mewtwo
Red_Chaos
Badass_Bunny
Zero2Hero
Phoenix Wright
14 posters

Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Phoenix Wright 2011-07-21, 23:36

Welcome to my newest installment of decks and techs! I have been meaning to make one of these for a while, today we will be talking about a very important theory in Yugioh, something called the Floater Theory, or the plus/minus theory. Now, before we can get into what a floater is, lets start with the Plus/Minus theory.

The Plus/Minus Theory is a theory that helps show weather a card will generate advantage for you. For most cases, this theory puts four portions of cards into the spotlight, the player's hands, fields, graveyards, decks. Now, if you gain card advantage(for example, adding a card from your deck to your hand) that is considered +1, in the same way, losing card advantage (sending a card from your hand to the graveyard) is considered a -1. Now let's look at an example.

Lets say you normal summon a monster from your hand. You sent a card from your hand to the field. Anytime you lose cards from your hand, that's a -1. However, adding cards to the field is +1. Now that means that normal summoning is a +0 in general(but not always). This is when floaters come into play.

A Floater is a card that replaces itself on the field. A prime example of this are the Gadget cards. When they are summoned, they get another gadget from your deck, so summoning a gadget would work like this


-Summon Gadget(-1)
-Get Gadget from your deck(+1)
-Add card to the field(+1)

-1+1=0

so as you can see, floaters(like the gadgets) are cards that can replace themselves. This can be a monster added to the field, hand, or (in some cases) the graveyard. This is why most top decks have some kind of floater (lonefire blossom, Shien's Smoke Signal, XX-Saber Darksoul, etc) understanding floaters is a very important thing in understanding how to win

Now lets look at a couple of other mechanics in the game.

-Synchro Summon: Now synchro monsters are some of the most powerful and broken cards in the game, but there is a reason for this. Lets take an example of sending Rose, Warrior of Revenge, and Summoner Monk, to the grave for the synchro summon of Stardust Dragon

-Send Rose to the grave(-1 from the field)
-Send Monk to the grave(-1 from the field)
-Summon Stardust Dragon(+1 to the field)

1-1-1=-1

so as you can see, a synchro summon is always at least a -1, although it can be more (a problem with debris plant decks is they make huge minuses when synchro summoning).

-Special Summon-A special summon can be broken into several categories
-A monster Special Summoned from the hand is a +0
-A monster Special Summoned from the deck/graveyard/removed from play zone is a +1
-A monster Special Summoned by the effect of a spell/trap from your hand is a -1
-A monster Special Summoned by the effect of a spell/trap from your deck/graveyard/removed from play zone is a +0
-A monster that is Special Summoned by the effect of a card in your hand is almost always a -1


-Playing a spell or trap is a -1

-Drawing a card is a +1 per drawn card

-Fusion Summoning with Polymerization is a -2 (but can be more depending on the materials required)

-Fusion Summoning via "Contact Fusion" or through Fusion Gate is a -1, however, playing fusion gate is a -1 in itself

-Tribute summoning is a +0

-Ritual Summoning can be expressed by y= (-n)+1 where n=the number of cards discarded/tributed for the summon of the ritual monster (this equation also works for synchroing and contact fusion)



So, as you can see, a lot of mechanics in the game give you minuses, but there are a few things to take into account that theory does not

-This theory does not take into account card effects that don't add/take cards from your hand/field/grave/deck

Ex: Say your opponent has 4 cards on the field, and you use the effect of Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier and discard 4 cards.

Discard 4 cards (-4)
Bounce 4 of your opponent's cards(+4)
Add the bounced cards to the hand (-4)

4-4-4=-4

So based on the theory, you just went -4. Now that may be true, but now Brionac has just set you up to do some big damage, so even though you went -4, you still got a very good effect, but the theory does not show that

-This theory does not add cards destroyed by battle

Put simply, if your monster attacks an opponent's monster and destroys it, it is not calculated as your opponent minusing or you plusing, it just kinda happens



Now, as you can see, the Plus/Minus theory is a good way to help understand Yugioh, but it is a flawed system. By this theory, there is no reason to run synchros, or even normal summon. So use this theory to see if a card is a +1,-2, or whatever, but it is not a good judge of if a card is good

Good Luck, and Happy Dueling


Last edited by Pox_Equestria on 2011-07-22, 00:33; edited 1 time in total
Phoenix Wright
Phoenix Wright


Posts : 2772
Birthday : 1993-12-14
Join date : 2011-05-16

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Zero2Hero 2011-07-21, 23:43

Nice. Well written too. This is very informative and helpful to new duelist, or some that just never thought of this stuff.
Zero2Hero
Zero2Hero
Hidden Genius
Hidden Genius

Posts : 2557
Birthday : 1994-01-10
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Phoenix Wright 2011-07-21, 23:49

Thanks man, I'm happy you like it
Phoenix Wright
Phoenix Wright


Posts : 2772
Birthday : 1993-12-14
Join date : 2011-05-16

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Badass_Bunny 2011-07-22, 00:01

Well you need to take into consideration that there is Field Advantage and Hand Advantage. Normal Summon in itself is -1 from hand but +1 on field. So in theory that is 0 too. And one more thing

Pox_Equestria wrote:y= (-n)+1

I'm like you're rally good at math

Pox_Equestria wrote: +0

^Then I'm like WTF?

Well me being nitpicker on unimportant things aside...I like this a lot.


Last edited by Badass_Bunny on 2011-07-22, 00:12; edited 1 time in total
Badass_Bunny
Badass_Bunny
Smexy Duelist
Smexy Duelist

Posts : 2660
Birthday : 1996-04-17
Join date : 2011-06-12

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Red_Chaos 2011-07-22, 00:06

ok can you explain why
A monster Special Summoned from the hand is a +0 and not -1

example Maurading Captain's effect summons monster
Red_Chaos
Red_Chaos


Posts : 2312
Birthday : 1990-12-30
Join date : 2011-07-15

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Mewtwo 2011-07-22, 00:22

Pox_Equestria wrote:Welcome to my newest installment of decks and techs! I have been meaning to make one of these for a while, today we will be talking about a very important theory in Yugioh, something called the Floater Theory, or the plus/minus theory. Now, before we can get into what a floater is, lets start with the Plus/Minus theory.

The Plus/Minus Theory is a theory that helps show weather a card will generate advantage for you. For most cases, this theory puts four portions of cards into the spotlight, the player's hands, fields, graveyards, decks. Now, if you gain card advantage(for example, adding a card from your deck to your hand) that is considered +1, in the same way, losing card advantage (sending a card from your hand to the graveyard) is considered a -1. Now let's look at an example.

Lets say you normal summon a monster from your hand. You sent a card from your hand to the field. Anytime you lose cards from your hand, that's a -1. Now that means that normal summoning is a -1 in general(but not always). This is when floaters come into play.

A Floater is a card that replaces itself on the field. A prime example of this are the Gadget cards. When they are summoned, they get another gadget from your deck, so summoning a gadget would work like this


-Summon Gadget(-1)
-Get Gadget from your deck(+1)

-1+1=0

so as you can see, floaters(like the gadgets) are cards that can replace themselves. This can be a monster added to the field, hand, or (in some cases) the graveyard. This is why most top decks have some kind of floater (lonefire blossom, Shien's Smoke Signal, XX-Saber Darksoul, etc) understanding floaters is a very important thing in understanding how to win

Now lets look at a couple of other mechanics in the game.

-Synchro Summon: Now synchro monsters are some of the most powerful and broken cards in the game, but there is a reason for this. Lets take an example of sending Rose, Warrior of Revenge, and Summoner Monk, to the grave for the synchro summon of Stardust Dragon

-Send Rose to the grave(-1 from the field)
-Send Monk to the grave(-1 from the field)
-Summon Stardust Dragon(+1 to the field)

1-1-1=-1

so as you can see, a synchro summon is always at least a -1, although it can be more (a problem with debris plant decks is they make huge minuses when synchro summoning).

-Special Summon-A special summon can be broken into several categories
-A monster Special Summoned from the hand is a +0
-A monster Special Summoned from the deck/graveyard/removed from play zone is a +1
-A monster Special Summoned by the effect of a spell/trap from your hand is a -1
-A monster Special Summoned by the effect of a spell/trap from your deck/graveyard/removed from play zone is a +0
-A monster that is Special Summoned by the effect of a card in your hand is almost always a -1


-Playing a spell or trap is a -1

-Drawing a card is a +1 per drawn card

-In a deck that WANTS to mill, milling is a +1 per card milled

-In a deck that does NOT want to be milled, milling is a -1 per card

-Fusion Summoning with Polymerization is a -2 (but can be more depending on the materials required)

-Fusion Summoning via "Contact Fusion" or through Fusion Gate is a -1, however, playing fusion gate is a -1 in itself

-Tribute summoning is a +0

-Ritual Summoning can be expressed by y= (-n)+1 where n=the number of cards discarded/tributed for the summon of the ritual monster (this equation also works for synchroing and contact fusion)



So, as you can see, a lot of mechanics in the game give you minuses, but there are a few things to take into account that theory does not

-This theory does not take into account card effects that don't add/take cards from your hand/field/grave/deck

Ex: Say your opponent has 4 cards on the field, and you use the effect of Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier and discard 4 cards.

Discard 4 cards (-4)
Bounce 4 of your opponent's cards(+4)
Add the bounced cards to the hand (-4)

4-4-4=-4

So based on the theory, you just went -4. Now that may be true, but now Brionac has just set you up to do some big damage, so even though you went -4, you still got a very good effect, but the theory does not show that

-This theory does not add cards destroyed by battle

Put simply, if your monster attacks an opponent's monster and destroys it, it is not calculated as your opponent minusing or you plusing, it just kinda happens



Now, as you can see, the Plus/Minus theory is a good way to help understand Yugioh, but it is a flawed system. By this theory, there is no reason to run synchros, or even normal summon. So use this theory to see if a card is a +1,-2, or whatever, but it is not a good judge of if a card is good

Good Luck, and Happy Dueling

Good effort, but some of your info is a tad inaccurate.

Normal summoning is not a minus. If you have control of the monster you still have that monster as part of your advantage. Whether the card is normal or special summoned has little to do with it. Gadgets are a +1. Same with your fusion gate example. As long as the card remains on your field, it does not change your overall advantage, so just playing it is not a minus.

Also milling in any deck, even LS or plants, is neither a plus or minus, unless you mill a Wulf, or any card that can somehow be immediately added to your field or hand. This is purely situational, so milling in general is not a plus. Pluses or minuses in advantage are only what's on your field or in your hand.

One last observation: The minuses in debris plant when synching are usually made up for by huge minuses to your opponent. For example getting out a Trishula can be a +0. Summoning Trish is -2, but then you remove a card for your opponents hand and field for a +2. By the same principle, a Black Rose nuke can result in a huge plus if your opponent just had a bunch of cards on their field. So really in plant decks it's not a big problem, unless your opponent solemn or veils. That's why the deck tops.
Mewtwo
Mewtwo


Posts : 115
Join date : 2011-06-05

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Phoenix Wright 2011-07-22, 00:31

A monster that special summons itself from the hand (like cyber dragon is like this

Take it from the hand (-1)
Put it on the field (+1)

thus, a +0

and I realized I messed up on the normal summoning bit, sorry about that

also, clearly debris plants are good, I was just pointing out a flaw in them

and your probably right about milling, I adjust that as well

and also, I suppose it would just be a "0" or "+/-0" but I am both lazy and an optimist, so I used +0
Phoenix Wright
Phoenix Wright


Posts : 2772
Birthday : 1993-12-14
Join date : 2011-05-16

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  CaiusTSR 2011-07-22, 00:57

I hate math, but your math is really easy to understand and your words are clear. Very informative Pox!
CaiusTSR
CaiusTSR


Posts : 521
Birthday : 1992-12-13
Join date : 2011-06-30

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Phoenix Wright 2011-07-22, 01:03

Thanks a lot!
Phoenix Wright
Phoenix Wright


Posts : 2772
Birthday : 1993-12-14
Join date : 2011-05-16

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Neo1715 2011-07-22, 03:45

Shouldn't tribute summoning be at least a -1 in most cases?
Neo1715
Neo1715


Posts : 58
Join date : 2011-05-26

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Red_Chaos 2011-07-22, 23:16

Pox_Equestria wrote:A monster that special summons itself from the hand (like cyber dragon is like this

Take it from the hand (-1)
Put it on the field (+1)

thus, a +0


thank you
Red_Chaos
Red_Chaos


Posts : 2312
Birthday : 1990-12-30
Join date : 2011-07-15

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Burn3r 2011-07-29, 10:59

Creating advantage is not to be ignored completely either.
Burn3r
Burn3r


Posts : 11
Birthday : 1987-12-19
Join date : 2011-07-29

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  {EX} TheVoid 2011-07-31, 04:43

Tribute Summoning a monster, without considering effects is a -1. Summoning Gadgets is a +1. You said Tribute Summoning is a 0 and so are gadgets.

Tribute Summon:
-1 card from hand
-1 monster from field
+1 monster from field
-2+1=-1.

Gadget:
-1 card from hand
+1 monster to field
+1 Monster to hand from deck
-1+2=1
{EX} TheVoid
{EX} TheVoid
Cuddlez's Biscuit
Cuddlez's Biscuit

Posts : 2345
Birthday : 1992-02-29
Join date : 2011-06-22

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  byak 2011-07-31, 09:57

I don't see much of a point to this article. All you have to do is go to a novice player and tell them, "Cards that waste a lot of advantage for a mediocre outcome are bad, and always try to maintain more card advantage than your opponent so you conserve resources and hold onto your outs".

Also,

"-This theory does not add cards destroyed by battle

Put simply, if your monster attacks an opponent's monster and destroys it, it is not calculated as your opponent minusing or you plusing, it just kinda happens"

This makes no sense, by destroying a monster on the field by battle, your opponent is losing a card, so they're taking a minus and you're getting a plus.
byak
byak


Posts : 68
Join date : 2011-07-27

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  BobaFett2 2011-07-31, 11:52

A Normal Summon or Special Summon is not a -1 advantage move. You still have the same number of cards.
BobaFett2
BobaFett2


Posts : 63
Join date : 2011-05-26

http://frost-and-flame-acad.forumotion.com/

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Phoenix Wright 2011-07-31, 12:13

Pox_Equestria wrote:

Lets say you normal summon a monster from your hand. You sent a card from your hand to the field. Anytime you lose cards from your hand, that's a -1. However, adding cards to the field is +1. Now that means that normal summoning is a +0 in general(but not always). This is when floaters come into play.






I know....
Phoenix Wright
Phoenix Wright


Posts : 2772
Birthday : 1993-12-14
Join date : 2011-05-16

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  aquabass 2011-08-13, 03:42

Hell yeah for counting cards o.o lets just hope we dont duel in Vegas eh? lol Now if you can create and follow the + - system and still predict what you might draw all while dueling well damn thats +20.
aquabass
aquabass


Posts : 103
Join date : 2011-06-22

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  LilSno 2011-08-13, 11:15

Only how to count a card quality left.
To describe how Dark Magician is inferior to the Blue Eyes White Dragon for example.
Not only by judging its statistics, but also by its available supports and the recent blow of trend.

Regarding to the card count.
I prefer to count each "place" such as hand, field, deck, and grave separately. Just like accounting system.

However, nice guide Pox.
LilSno
LilSno


Posts : 51
Birthday : 1981-09-10
Join date : 2011-07-31

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  tester12342 2011-08-13, 12:36

I never been a fan of the +/- theory, it's way too inconsistent in my view. There are too many situations that a supposed minus can end up help you win a game. Some easy examples would be Synchro summoning (-2 or more monsters +1 synchro monster= -1), Fusion summons (-2 monsters +1 fusion monster = -1 and possibly -2 if Polymerization is used), Dark Bribe (-1), Tribute summons (-1 and possibly -2 for Level 7 or higher monsters).

There are more examples out there I'm just too lazy to list them all.

tester12342


Posts : 466
Join date : 2011-07-04

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  LilSno 2011-08-13, 23:57

tester12342 wrote:I never been a fan of the +/- theory, it's way too inconsistent in my view. There are too many situations that a supposed minus can end up help you win a game. Some easy examples would be Synchro summoning (-2 or more monsters +1 synchro monster= -1), Fusion summons (-2 monsters +1 fusion monster = -1 and possibly -2 if Polymerization is used), Dark Bribe (-1), Tribute summons (-1 and possibly -2 for Level 7 or higher monsters).

There are more examples out there I'm just too lazy to list them all.

Yes, because the "floater" theory just "counting cards" at singularity. Why the minus at the Synchro you described earlier is good because you just summon something that has quality. That's mean the summoned monster is could be more valuable than its cost. It could remove opponent card(s) more than its cost.

It is difficult to count it mathematically, since it would require trend analysis and correlation analysis in which would require you to compute all cards at YGO realm.
Let say Stardust dragon is good because it can negate "destroy".
If suddenly "destroy"-ing a card is not popular anymore at YGO, in the mean there're many other way of removal such as banishing or returning to hand. Stardust dragon will be not as useful as it is now.

So the conclusion is, the floating theory is one of the best for the simplest counting system for YGO. No wonder, if it missed a lot. But for the quick counting it is good.
LilSno
LilSno


Posts : 51
Birthday : 1981-09-10
Join date : 2011-07-31

Back to top Go down

Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory Empty Re: Decks and Techs-Understanding Floaters and the +/- theory

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum