BRD VS VEILER VS BOOK OF MOON

Hi...need help with a ruling

As Black Rose Dragon can activate its Nuke effect having met the condition for it (ie. being Synchro Summoned)

Does this mean that if the Nuke is activated and the opponent responds with Effect Veiler AND YOU USE YOUR OWN Book of Moon on Black Rose...it surely stands to reason that the Nuke effect of Black Rose can be played as Veiler loses it's target??

HELP!!

You are right. Effect Veiler will cease to stop Black Rose Dragon's destruction effect, due to Book of Moon flipping Black Rose facedown.

AquaBeastGenesis wrote:Hi...need help with a ruling

As Black Rose Dragon can activate its Nuke effect having met the condition for it (ie. being Synchro Summoned)

Does this mean that if the Nuke is activated and the opponent responds with Effect Veiler AND YOU USE YOUR OWN Book of Moon on Black Rose...it surely stands to reason that the Nuke effect of Black Rose can be played as Veiler loses it's target??

HELP!!

Effect Veiler cares only about a face-up target, yes, so in this instance BRD would activate, get veiler'd, then go face-down to resolve, with effect veiler no longer negating given its target is no longer face-up.

Keep in mind this is the only exception I can think of (Flipping a veiler'd monster face down to resolve effect) with effect veiler acting strange.

If he were to bottomless your BRD, and you don't respond, he can then veiler and have BRD /not/ blow-up the field. CL3: Veiler negates, CL2: BRD Bottomlessed CL3: Brd attempting to blow up, but is veiler'd and off the field.

Veiler cares about a monster's physical position when it is used in some cases.

XVI wrote:

If he were to bottomless your BRD, and you don't respond, he can then veiler and have BRD /not/ blow-up the field. CL3: Veiler negates, CL2: BRD Bottomlessed CL3: Brd attempting to blow up, but is veiler'd and off the field.

In this case, BRD WILL still nuke the field.

Can you explain and provide evidence for BRD still nuking the field?

Veiler will negate Black Rose Dragon's effect once it has affect Black Rose Dragon already.

Unless during the process it's flipped face-down

No evidence, but this has been discussed before :
http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/t2850-black-rose-dragonand-book-of-moon-vs-skill-drain-ruling-question

BlackRose would still nuke field if it even got book of mooned

You mean "even when it is Veiler'ed and Bottomless Trap Hole in chain"?
here's the email rulings for this:
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=920773

XVI wrote:Can you explain and provide evidence for BRD still nuking the field?

Because BRD is off the field, thus no longer face up and is no longer affected by Veiler. Same reason Sangan still gets it's effect if sent to the Graveyard after being brought out by Tour Guide.

Ehh...
You guys should read this

I don't get it... what did exiled force do ?

Ok let me explain this way

BRD-Chain Link 1
Veiler-Chain Link 2
BOM-Chain Link 3

Since at resolution Veiler's target is not face up it will not be negated by effect Veiler

BRD-Chain Link 1
BTH-Chain Link 2
Veiler-Chain Link 3

In this case Veiler already negated BRD eff therefore even if it's removed from the field before resolving BRD effect still activated on the field and is negated by Veiler.

Anything else that says this isn't true is either BS or BKSS

Badass_Bunny wrote:Ok let me explain this way

BRD-Chain Link 1
BTH-Chain Link 2
Veiler-Chain Link 3

In this case Veiler already negated BRD eff therefore even if it's removed from the field before resolving BRD effect still activated on the field and is negated by Veiler.

Anything else that says this isn't true is either BS or BKSS

Yeah, BRD won't be negated BKSS.

Even though Konami's email I linked agrees with Bunny?

The e-mail does seem to imply that the effect will still be negated even if the monster is removed from the field.

Miror B. wrote:

XVI wrote:Can you explain and provide evidence for BRD still nuking the field?

Because BRD is off the field, thus no longer face up and is no longer affected by Veiler. Same reason Sangan still gets it's effect if sent to the Graveyard after being brought out by Tour Guide.

This is not true. Sangan effects actually activates in the Grave, while Exile (as an example of an effect that activates on the field even when the card is not) effect activates on the field. Exile, etc. can escape Skill Drain since they're no longer on field at resolution, but they cannot escape Veiler's effect that way.

For example, if Tour Guide were to bring out a card with similar text to Exile, like Possessed Dark Soul, you can tribute it, but its effect will be negated.

Moving on to the BRD, BRD effect activates on field, regardless of where it is at resolution. Therefore, taking it off the field after being affected will prevent veiler's effect from negating.

I think the situation would be different if a card removing BRD from the field is activated in chain to veiler's effect, though, since the card is no longer face-up on the field at veiler's resolution?

Keys link is more reliable since it
1) has a later date then the other one
2) doesn't contradict every logic of chains and other rulings

it is as simple as that...

Guys, don't make easy things hard, and it's not BKSS, it's an easy ruling.

Chain 1: BRD.
Chain 2: Veiler.
Chain 3: Book.

Resolves backwards:
Chain 3: Book(BRD face-down).
Chain 2: Veiler(resolves without effect due to losing valid target).
Chain 1: BRD(resolves properly as it's already activated and never negated [properly]).

And another question of the day:
Q: Does Veiler still negate if a card to flip Veiler it's target face-down is activated?
A: Veiler resolves without an effect because it has lost it's valid target and thus it won't be negating anything at all. This is because Veiler clearly says FACE-UP.

Hope I helped.

We're past that, 3e-hero neos. We've moved on the BTH...

My original point is that all Veiler needs to be successful is a face-up target that, at no point, goes face down. It can leave the field or bounce to the deck, but will still be negated (A little similar to Lance vs GB Tag vs Warning)

Becuase Effect veiler is not continous, is a one-time thing, and works as long as the target does not go face-down, effect veiler will stop the black rose nuke if this chain is performed:

CL1: BRD
CL2: Bottomless
CL3: Veiler

We really need another e-mail answer from Konami ...

3E-hero neos wrote:Guys, don't make easy things hard, and it's not BKSS, it's an easy ruling.

Chain 1: BRD.
Chain 2: Veiler.
Chain 3: Book.

Resolves backwards:
Chain 3: Book(BRD face-down).
Chain 2: Veiler(resolves without effect due to losing valid target).
Chain 1: BRD(resolves properly as it's already activated and never negated [properly]).

And another question of the day:
Q: Does Veiler still negate if a card to flip Veiler it's target face-down is activated?
A: Veiler resolves without an effect because it has lost it's valid target and thus it won't be negating anything at all. This is because Veiler clearly says FACE-UP.

Hope I helped.

As someone seems to have found an irrelevant source that apparently contradicts this, I'd like to point out that they're wrong, and that 3E-hero neos is correct here.

Black Rose will work in this case. Solved.