Re: God

**Martia-chan** 2011-10-16, 14:54

Now, although I'm usually for debates, when it comes to beliefs I respect the fact that you can believe what you want as long as it's not imposing/hurting others to huge extents. So, I'll refrain from arguing and simply say this.

I believe in the possibility in the existence of gods. However, I also believe in the possibility of multiple goes, holy spirits, and generally anything despite how strange it may be to other people. However, to me, it's all just a possibility.

All these miracles, may just be by mere chance or a placebo. Not to insult any kind of god if it was his/her work. Since I can accept the fact that it may be due to some god as well, but there's no proof of that, so I'm remaining neutral on all points.

However, if your asking me if I'd like a god figure, when it comes to beliefs of religions, I'd have to decline. However, if I use my own beliefs of what a god is/should be, then I'd be fine with that kind of god.

On a final note, for anyone that watched Madoka.

God is a magical girl, deal with it.

**nibf** 2011-10-27, 21:38

Socrates was it man that created the gods or was it the gods that created man? Socrates was a greek/ roman dude (don't remember which one); but thought it'd be cool to put this here. like asking the question which came first the chicken or the egg? Anyway doesn't matter if he's real or not, it's up to the person. I don't mind nor care about anyone who chooses to believe in a higher being. That's their own thing. Personally i can only believe in what I can see, touch, hear, feel. I believe in anything that can be explained by stone cold evidence, science.

**Potus-Mat** 2011-10-27, 21:46

nibf wrote:Socrates was it man that created the gods or was it the gods that created man? Socrates was a greek/ roman dude (don't remember which one); but thought it'd be cool to put this here. like asking the question which came first the chicken or the egg? Anyway doesn't matter if he's real or not, it's up to the person. I don't mind nor care about anyone who chooses to believe in a higher being. That's their own thing. Personally i can only believe in what I can see, touch, hear, feel. I believe in anything that can be explained by stone cold evidence, science.

Socrates: Greek.
It does not work like that. God must exist before man or God does not exist.
Also, MAJOR necrobump...

**Occultdude17** 2011-10-28, 20:17

Potus-Mat wrote:
nibf wrote:Socrates was it man that created the gods or was it the gods that created man? Socrates was a greek/ roman dude (don't remember which one); but thought it'd be cool to put this here. like asking the question which came first the chicken or the egg? Anyway doesn't matter if he's real or not, it's up to the person. I don't mind nor care about anyone who chooses to believe in a higher being. That's their own thing. Personally i can only believe in what I can see, touch, hear, feel. I believe in anything that can be explained by stone cold evidence, science.
Socrates: Greek.
It does not work like that. God must exist before man or God does not exist.
Also, MAJOR necrobump...

Not necessarily. You assume that time is a factor here. There are three circumstances under which humans and gods could create each other.

The first is the Anthropic Principle, which basically states that the universe must exist and be suitable for life because we are here to observe it. God could be added as a third step.

The second is if God exists in another universe that I'm going to make in my basement in two day's time - perfectly safe according to M-Theory, though I will first need to get a basement. That universe will then pinch off and become separate from ours unless I manage to keep a wormhole open to it. And given as each universe has its own separate time, there is no reason that God could not be born in that universe and then create ours with the same experiment. Although, as I've already mentioned, time and space are the same at a Big Bang, so we can't really say that either "creates" the other.

The third involves a simple examination of what "God" originally was. There's a story by Aesop about how the Sun and the Wind were debating about who was stronger, and decided to test their powers by forcing a traveller to remove his cloak (the Sun won). Of course, the Sun and Wind could never really argue, as they are inanimate and are about 150 million kilometres apart. What we have here is a personification, where the Sun and Wind were given human traits for the purpose of the story.

There are other examples, such as Father Time, the Grim Reaper, Santa Claus, Mother Earth and Uncle Sam. None of them are real people, they are just the embodiment of some abstract concept. God is just a personification of everything in the universe beyond our control or understanding. He created us as the world, and we created his character as story-tellers.

Furthermore, the third interpretation makes the question "Do you believe in God?" rather pointless, as he's just a symbol. But once people got conned into giving the priest some of their mammoth meat, they forgot this simple fact and started brainwashing future generations.

**GadgetPWNer** 2011-11-27, 16:40

People are only atheists because it says that when they die, they're dead and can just do whatever on earth and never be punished for it. If you shot endlessly at a broken watch will ever it work again? Common sense says no, atheism says yes. To sum it up yes, I believe in the Christian God.

**nsanejokr** 2011-11-27, 17:09

GadgetPWNer wrote:People are only atheists because it says that when they die, they're dead and can just do whatever on earth and never be punished for it.

Christians only believe in God, because when they die they can get to heaven while also being able to do whatever they want on Earth as long as they "repent" later and be absolved of their sins.

See what I did there?

If you shot endlessly at a broken watch will ever it work again? Common sense says no, atheism says yes.

Nope, an atheist would still say no. Nice try.

**Potus-Mat** 2011-11-27, 18:38

GadgetPWNer wrote:People are only atheists because it says that when they die, they're dead and can just do whatever on earth and never be punished for it. If you shot endlessly at a broken watch will ever it work again? Common sense says no, atheism says yes. To sum it up yes, I believe in the Christian God.

Christianity is worshiping a zombie with a different religion than you have.
Christianity is talking on a cellular telephone during a movie, then demanding to go to a longer movie after it is done.
Christianity is a supplement for reality that was alrighty when man was young, but is outdated now.
Sound good?

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-27, 22:35

DarkRiku wrote:Keep this topic mature. As in any debate you can voice your opinion but no forcing on others.

I believe in him. I am a Christian.

I think before I post anything else I will let others voice their opinions first. I need to know how others see everything.

Proof God does exist: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

Proof God doesn't exist:

Do you think being gay is wrong?

**TamACOPY** 2011-11-27, 22:51

CheyMcFly wrote:
DarkRiku wrote:Keep this topic mature. As in any debate you can voice your opinion but no forcing on others.

I believe in him. I am a Christian.

I think before I post anything else I will let others voice their opinions first. I need to know how others see everything.

Proof God does exist: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

Proof God doesn't exist:

Do you think being gay is wrong?

That's off-topic. Let's not derail the topic.

For the others, let's also keep the discussion respectful.

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-27, 23:02

TamA wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
DarkRiku wrote:Keep this topic mature. As in any debate you can voice your opinion but no forcing on others.

I believe in him. I am a Christian.

I think before I post anything else I will let others voice their opinions first. I need to know how others see everything.

Proof God does exist: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

Proof God doesn't exist:

Do you think being gay is wrong?

That's off-topic. Let's not derail the topic.

For the others, let's also keep the discussion respectful.

Can you explain how it's off-topic? A lot of Christians say being gay is wrong because of their religion/the bible/ God. I'm not insulting just asking a question. I myself am a Christian and I find there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think people take things out of context, but I wanted to know how a fellow Christian felt. Isn't that the point of this?

**Potus-Mat** 2011-11-27, 23:03

CheyMcFly wrote:Can you explain how it's off-topic? A lot of Christians say being gay is wrong because of their religion/the bible/ God. I'm not insulting just asking a question. I myself am a Christian and I find there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think people take things out of context, but I wanted to know how a fellow Christian felt. Isn't that the point of this?

This is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is divinity, not sexuality.

**TamACOPY** 2011-11-27, 23:11

Potus-Mat wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:Can you explain how it's off-topic? A lot of Christians say being gay is wrong because of their religion/the bible/ God. I'm not insulting just asking a question. I myself am a Christian and I find there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think people take things out of context, but I wanted to know how a fellow Christian felt. Isn't that the point of this?
This is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is divinity, not a religion's or person's views on sexuality.

Fix'd that for you. And correct.

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-27, 23:15

Potus-Mat wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:Can you explain how it's off-topic? A lot of Christians say being gay is wrong because of their religion/the bible/ God. I'm not insulting just asking a question. I myself am a Christian and I find there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think people take things out of context, but I wanted to know how a fellow Christian felt. Isn't that the point of this?
This is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is divinity, not sexuality.

I see what you are saying, I just wanted to see what a fellow Christian believed. That is all, and this is a topic about God, and this is discussed in the bible/by a lot of Christians so I thought this was a place to ask. But I'm sorry if I offended anyone or anything.

Honestly I think I'm only Christian because I was raised it. The bible contradicts itself a lot as do my Pastors and everyone who has taught me about God/Religion. I'm not sure if I do believe in God.

**Occultdude17** 2011-11-27, 23:30

CheyMcFly wrote:
Potus-Mat wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:Can you explain how it's off-topic? A lot of Christians say being gay is wrong because of their religion/the bible/ God. I'm not insulting just asking a question. I myself am a Christian and I find there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think people take things out of context, but I wanted to know how a fellow Christian felt. Isn't that the point of this?
This is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is divinity, not sexuality.

I see what you are saying, I just wanted to see what a fellow Christian believed. That is all, and this is a topic about God, and this is discussed in the bible/by a lot of Christians so I thought this was a place to ask. But I'm sorry if I offended anyone or anything.

Honestly I think I'm only Christian because I was raised it. The bible contradicts itself a lot as do my Pastors and everyone who has taught me about God/Religion. I'm not sure if I do believe in God.

If you're having a crisis of faith, I think you should watch this video series:

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbQQ6MSP7kw

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=KbQQ6MSP7kw&annotation_id=annotation_651262&v=RT8WATQ6vWY&feature=iv

3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUZdQmtYFc

4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCfVd5QvdGY

**Resurgence** 2011-11-27, 23:41

Might as well post my honest to God opinion before I troll more...

Morality can be founded on whatever then hell you want. It doesn't matter if you act for the benefit of others because it feeds your pride or because you are just a goody-two-shoes, as long as you are acting in a way that satisfies your own sense of conscience and doesn't cause harm to anybody else for undue reason, then !@#$ whatever anyone else wants to believe or not believe.

Kay, gonna troll some more...

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-27, 23:49

Occultdude17 wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
Potus-Mat wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:Can you explain how it's off-topic? A lot of Christians say being gay is wrong because of their religion/the bible/ God. I'm not insulting just asking a question. I myself am a Christian and I find there is nothing wrong with being gay. I think people take things out of context, but I wanted to know how a fellow Christian felt. Isn't that the point of this?
This is not the topic at hand. The topic at hand is divinity, not sexuality.

I see what you are saying, I just wanted to see what a fellow Christian believed. That is all, and this is a topic about God, and this is discussed in the bible/by a lot of Christians so I thought this was a place to ask. But I'm sorry if I offended anyone or anything.

Honestly I think I'm only Christian because I was raised it. The bible contradicts itself a lot as do my Pastors and everyone who has taught me about God/Religion. I'm not sure if I do believe in God.

If you're having a crisis of faith, I think you should watch this video series:

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbQQ6MSP7kw

2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?src_vid=KbQQ6MSP7kw&annotation_id=annotation_651262&v=RT8WATQ6vWY&feature=iv

3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKUZdQmtYFc

4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCfVd5QvdGY

I kindly decline this offer.

**DarkRiku** 2011-11-28, 01:34

So him using the Bible to prove a non-existent God is evil is going to change my beliefs? This has been done before. The Devil used the Bible himself to deceive others.

http://atheism.about.com/od/weeklyquotes/a/goodman01.htm

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html

So God is all knowing so that also means he can decide what he doesn't want to know as well.

Just my thoughts at hand.

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-28, 01:38

were the other comments deleted?

**Occultdude17** 2011-11-28, 19:12

DarkRiku wrote:So him using the Bible to prove a non-existent God is evil is going to change my beliefs? This has been done before. The Devil used the Bible himself to deceive others.

http://atheism.about.com/od/weeklyquotes/a/goodman01.htm

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html

So God is all knowing so that also means he can decide what he doesn't want to know as well.

Just my thoughts at hand.

Not change. You can believe whatever you want. If you want to believe in a personal God then there's nothing wrong with that. These videos only show how taking every word of the Bible literally is incompatible with the idea that God is good. Only extremists do that anyway, this is just to discourage people from joining that crowd. But you can just read the Bible for yourself - all of it, cover to cover, without skipping the gruesome bits - in order to get the point.

**Halberdier** 2011-11-28, 20:15

God is a user on DN.

He has 123 rating and 179 rep.

39 wins/57 losses/2 draws

Not so all powerful.

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-29, 03:38

Occultdude17 wrote:
DarkRiku wrote:So him using the Bible to prove a non-existent God is evil is going to change my beliefs? This has been done before. The Devil used the Bible himself to deceive others.

http://atheism.about.com/od/weeklyquotes/a/goodman01.htm

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html

So God is all knowing so that also means he can decide what he doesn't want to know as well.

Just my thoughts at hand.

Not change. You can believe whatever you want. If you want to believe in a personal God then there's nothing wrong with that. These videos only show how taking every word of the Bible literally is incompatible with the idea that God is good. Only extremists do that anyway, this is just to discourage people from joining that crowd. But you can just read the Bible for yourself - all of it, cover to cover, without skipping the gruesome bits - in order to get the point.

I have read the bible. Meh.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 04:35

I do not believe in the general concept of god. I do see possibilities for entities to be in a 5e or even 6e dimension seeing all that’s is a the same time. (we walking in a 3 dimensional world in the 4e dimension that is time.)

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-29, 04:37

Ultimate lol wrote:I do not believe in the general concept of god. I do see possibilities for entities to be in a 5e or even 6e dimension seeing all that’s is a the same time. (we walking in a 3 dimensional world in the 4e dimension that is time.)

I find this very interesting, could you explain it a little more?

**DarkRiku** 2011-11-29, 04:39

Occultdude17 wrote:
DarkRiku wrote:So him using the Bible to prove a non-existent God is evil is going to change my beliefs? This has been done before. The Devil used the Bible himself to deceive others.

http://atheism.about.com/od/weeklyquotes/a/goodman01.htm

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/babies_who_die.html

So God is all knowing so that also means he can decide what he doesn't want to know as well.

Just my thoughts at hand.

Not change. You can believe whatever you want. If you want to believe in a personal God then there's nothing wrong with that. These videos only show how taking every word of the Bible literally is incompatible with the idea that God is good. Only extremists do that anyway, this is just to discourage people from joining that crowd. But you can just read the Bible for yourself - all of it, cover to cover, without skipping the gruesome bits - in order to get the point.

So for the people that have read the entire Bible and their faith hasn't change you just call them blinding themselves to the truth that you believe in?

My thoughts on God will not change just like yours won't change either.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 05:16

CheyMcFly wrote:
Ultimate lol wrote:I do not believe in the general concept of god. I do see possibilities for entities to be in a 5e or even 6e dimension seeing all that’s is a the same time. (we walking in a 3 dimensional world in the 4e dimension that is time.)

I find this very interesting, could you explain it a little more?

Sure, how much do you know of extra dimensions already? So I know where to start.

**CheyMcFly** 2011-11-29, 05:25

Ultimate lol wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
Ultimate lol wrote:I do not believe in the general concept of god. I do see possibilities for entities to be in a 5e or even 6e dimension seeing all that’s is a the same time. (we walking in a 3 dimensional world in the 4e dimension that is time.)

I find this very interesting, could you explain it a little more?

Sure, how much do you know of extra dimensions already? So I know where to start.

Honestly not really.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 06:19

Ok, from the beginning then. Warning, Not the most easy read.
This theory of dimensions says there are 10 dimensions. I'll explain till number 6.
As a base point Ill take the dimension we live in and first go back and then go forward.

Like I said in my initial post, we life in a 3 dimensional world. We can see in 3 axes. X, Y and Z. X and Y make movement on a horizontal plane. Z is up and down.
When you live in one dimension you can only see a slice of the next. Our next dimension is the 4e. Time. We can only see 1 slice of it at one time. Like a movie composed op pictures. Now the whole film roll is your life. You follow it picture by picture.

This is the reality we life in. To see how to move forward from here we move back first.

What is our dimension composed of?
1e dimension is a moving dot (symbolic). The dot is just there moving in an undetermined direction. Being that dot he can see no more than that slice being a dot.

2e dimension. Now let’s say you see the entire “lifetime” of this dot. You can put all the frames over each other and it will form a line.
A two dimensional world consists of a flat world. You can only move on a horizontal plane and can’t look up or down. Say a 3 dimensional object moves through a 2 dimensional world the second dimensional eye would only see slices. After adding up and down you enter our 3e dimension again.

Now if you got this you might know the next step.
If time is a film we can only see one slice. If you life in the 4e dimension this means you can see the entire film at the same time. Meaning you see all that has past, the present and all that will become but all is linear.
Now thing get a bit more complicated. The 4e dimension sees all of 1 universe. The 5e dimension can see not only see what is happing has happened and will happen but all possibilities of what could happen. In simple terms, in the 5e dimension you can see all the “What if”s. In here you can see all the different realities of what could have happened what happen and all that could happen.

Now take in mind this will go up to a 10e dimension. The 10e dimension contains all that is and could be in all universes.
God - Page 2 2859867778

I hope I made it clear enough. It’s pretty complicated matter I know. If you don’t understand something I’ll try to explain it.

**Supreme_King** 2011-11-29, 12:31

I found it an easy and interesting read as a matter of fact, considering I had 0 knowledge to begin with about different dimensions. The concept seems pretty basic and further strenghthens, this time in a scientific way, the idea that God exists.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 12:39

It does not "prove" that god exists. It is merely saying that there could be entities with a greater understanding by "being" in a higher dimension.

**Supreme_King** 2011-11-29, 15:06

Beings with greater understanding have the ability to bend our dimension. God is just a name for them.

(this is according to your theory)

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 15:20

Being in a higher dimension allows you to see all. Not to bend everything to your will. You see all possible outcomes but the only influence you would have is choosing which one to observe.
I gues you can call an entity like that god. But it won't be able to to most things he supposed to have done in the bible.

Also, keep in mind that the 10 dimension is a theory. We can assume they are there by logic but can probably never prove it (at least no time soon).
And even if there are more dimensions it is not say that there are actually entities live there. Just stating that I think there could be and that they would have a greater understanding of everything.

**Halberdier** 2011-11-29, 15:36

The fourth dimension is time. If you had the ability to see in a fourth dimension past our general understanding, you would not see all possible options. You would see the ONLY possible action. Which would be predetermined, since you wouldn't view time as linear object.

By that definition, a god that exists outside of our dimensions doesn't allow for the classic perception of free will (or free choice), and can't change our world or perception of things, because the moment he has, they never would have existed differently. Outside of time, things do not change and un-change, they simply are.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 16:07

Halberdier wrote:The fourth dimension is time. If you had the ability to see in a fourth dimension past our general understanding, you would not see all possible options. You would see the ONLY possible action. Which would be predetermined, since you wouldn't view time as linear object.

I hope I understand this first part correctly.
If you are in the fourth dimension you can indeed only see one outcome. When in the fifth, you can see all the branches that split up by different things that could happen. None of us in the third dimension would know the difference though like you said.

**Potus-Mat** 2011-11-29, 16:46

While the dimensioal theory does intrigue me (and makes Gurren Lagann make much more sense), I have a different thought experiment on God.
Say we create an artifical intelligence in a virtual realm identical to our's. Its intelligence and speed are exponentially better than ours. It is given a two drives: to obtain a coplete understanding of its realm, to become aware that it is being observed. Now, we could not create a being with such capabilities, but, as it has higher intelligence than us, it would attempt the same process of creating an artifical intelligence with higher intelligence and speed. Such a being would repeat, and that new being would repeat, until, finally, the nth being would be able to comprehend all information in its realm (there are a finite number of thigs in our realm, y'know). Then, either one of two things would happen: either it would be able to detect that it is being observed, meaning that that process could be replicated by the being above that one, and is repeated by the one before that one, and so on until us, where we repeat the proces to detect a god, or knowing of the observation of a higher being is impossible. Either way, I win.

**LadyYume** 2011-11-29, 17:03

This topic is a little touchy so I'll keep mine simple. I believe there is a God.

I also find it hard to believe some big bang made every little detail down to the smallest atom and cell there is. If you think about every system such as the photosynthesis in the leaves and the functions of our organs to do what they're designed to do, it's truly remarkable. But that is just me.

But for those who have their own beliefs I don't think it's right to condemn them for it. It's their lifestyle, their choice in what they believe in. Such things are a truly personal and shouldn't be dictated by extremist. :c

**Prince Vegeta** 2011-11-29, 17:46

this is all so interesting i need MOAR

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 17:48

Potus-Mat wrote:While the dimensioal theory does intrigue me (and makes Gurren Lagann make much more sense), I have a different thought experiment on God.
Say we create an artifical intelligence in a virtual realm identical to our's. Its intelligence and speed are exponentially better than ours. It is given a two drives: to obtain a coplete understanding of its realm, to become aware that it is being observed. Now, we could not create a being with such capabilities, but, as it has higher intelligence than us, it would attempt the same process of creating an artifical intelligence with higher intelligence and speed. Such a being would repeat, and that new being would repeat, until, finally, the nth being would be able to comprehend all information in its realm (there are a finite number of thigs in our realm, y'know). Then, either one of two things would happen: either it would be able to detect that it is being observed, meaning that that process could be replicated by the being above that one, and is repeated by the one before that one, and so on until us, where we repeat the proces to detect a god, or knowing of the observation of a higher being is impossible. Either way, I win.

Ahh, though experiments with god and physics. There nothing better than a good brain meld in the evening. XD

**Prince Vegeta** 2011-11-29, 17:51

LadyYume wrote:This topic is a little touchy so I'll keep mine simple. I believe there is a God.

I also find it hard to believe some big bang made every little detail down to the smallest atom and cell there is. If you think about every system such as the photosynthesis in the leaves and the functions of our organs to do what they're designed to do, it's truly remarkable. But that is just me.

But for those who have their own beliefs I don't think it's right to condemn them for it. It's their lifestyle, their choice in what they believe in. Such things are a truly personal and shouldn't be dictated by extremist. :c

i also have had this tought
the big bang couldn't make me this perfect
by perfect i eman breathing, exhaling the bad
heart pumping
perfect shape of body
2 legs
2 arms
perfect!

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-29, 17:53

I shall post where I got my dimension theory knowledge and meld your brains even more by letting it go to the 10e dimension.
He can probably explain it better than I do anyway. He has moving pictures cheers

**Broken_Soul** 2011-11-29, 17:59

im on a religion and i belive in God and why not beliee in him think how the Sun gives light to all the world how the plants grow how miracles happends i alwways think of that and i always say that there is someone behind all of that and that someone is God

**Amy Cool** 2011-11-29, 18:19

I just saw this topic and I thought I'll give few words to spice it up.

Since I believe in a single God, for me there is nothing better than to refer on the Book.

From my side in this discussion I need to prove that God exists. To do that I need to give statements from the Book that no human could write, meaning only God could do it. In the time of Book's creation Electronic microscope was something unknown. So, no human could know more than his eyes tell him. Now lets take a simple miracle from the Book:

"Surely God is not ashamed to set forth any parable– [that of] a mosquito or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that God means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! But He does not cause to err by it [any] except the transgressors"

Now lets take a look at this statement. Look at it carefully. "Parable that of a mosquito or any thing above that". Why mosquito? There are many other insects or animals or species in general, so why exactly a mosquito? It could be anything else and something had to be in this example so its just a random choice? We don't know it. So, today as our technology is far away from that point, some people gathered to see why mosquito, is it just a coincidence or there is something behind it, perhaps some Gods influence? So they took some researches on that living thing and found out something amazing. They found out that from many living things similar size of a mosquito, he has the most complex structure.

1. It is a female.
2. It has 100 eyes in its head.
3. It has 48 teeth in its mouth.
4. Inside its little body there are complete 3 hearts.
5. It has 6 knives in its nose and every single one has its own purpose.
6. It has 3 wings on each side.
7. In the body of this tiny creature there is a digital x-ray machine. It uses it to distinguish the human skin in the dark in violet color.
8. Its small body also contains a small vaccine that acts like a local anesthetic to help it to insert its thorns into human skin without feeling the pain caused by the suction of blood.
9. It has an instrument for blood test, because it doesn't take like all blood types.
10. It has a special mechanism to speed up the blood flow so it can suck it faster.
11. This one is the most strange discovery of modern science, they found that there is another very small microscopic insect living on the body of a mosquito.

Now lets take a look at that part of statement where it states: "Parable that of a mosquito or any thing above that". Still coincidence? Here at this point there are two paths to go: 1st one to believe this is a miracle and that God exists because only He would know those things in the time of creation of the Book, or 2nd path where you just say this is ridiculous and pure coincidence or whatever saying that this doesn't prove anything etc, negating Gods existence.

Almighty God of course knows how the people will react to this example and He even states that in the next part of statement: "then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that God means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! But He does not cause to err by it [any] except the transgressors"

We can see that the God even explains immediately to those who doesn't understand the simple example with the following: "He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! But He does not cause to err by it [any] except the transgressors"

This means, with this example of a mosquito he leads those who believe in Him and His work so that they always go the right path and by this understand the greatness of this mosquito example and those who doesn't believe, he leads them the wrong path and by that they will never understand the greatness of this example and still think God does not exist.

But, lets see what more this statement hides. The God is so merciful that He stated: "But He does not cause to err by it [any] except the transgressors"

This means only those who deny Gods existence totally, He will cause to err by it, EVERYONE else He will cause to understand, now or later but they will do it eventually, because its His will and He can do that. Now here we see how merciful He is to those who have at least some tiny bit of belief in Him somewhere in their hearts but for those who don't, we cannot even imagine how hard time they will have.

This is just a simple small example, and mosquito is a symbol how small that example is but how even such a small example can prove so big things. This is how God gives us examples. If we cannot understand these simple ones then its no wonder how can we deny those complex ones. If you think this was not enough, well take a look at the Book and see that the whole Book consists of these examples and that no statement could be written by a human itself. Of course understanding that will be the same as mosquito example, some can see it, some cannot.

Congratulations to all people that can simply ignore these examples of Gods existence with such clear proofs and still say everything is a coincidence, mother nature's work or whatever they call these "random" events, because I cannot do that, I can't ignore it, not with my realistic mind. Today, with science at this level its very hard not to believe, I must confess.

You might say that for every coincidence there is a simple scientific proof. Yes there is of course. Mosquito was one too. But, no one ever could find any scientific proof how could all those things be in the Book before they have been "discovered or proved by science". Who or what process could write them? Aliens (lol)? Or maybe rain caused tint to spread on paper so that accidentally those statements have been written by themselves in such a perfect order(some kind of evolution of tint itself huh ? O_o'). Or is it that some people from future came to make jokes with us, time travel?!

One thing is sure if God wanted everyone to believe in Him he wouldn't make so many tricky situations that some might believe and some might not. He left them so that we must give something from our minds to Him, like an offer from ourselves that we are ready to believe no matter that we cannot 100% say its true. Thats the point of believing in Him. If He did it other way around our purpose here would be nothing, a simple nothing.

I've also seen some here referring to evolution and such things. We have proof that you are wrong: In all this world, in so many years, people found so many fossils of Dinosaurs, microorganisms, other various species etc and there is not a SINGLE fossil of those evolution phases you refer to, those middle stages. There is a monkey and there is a human, everything in between is just pure guessing to connect those two somehow, "logically" just because they look similar. Almighty God made traps like this so that those who believe in Him avoid them and go the right path lead by Him and those who don't believe fall down into them thinking that evolution is the truth, not seeing that there is not a single proof, a single Fossil, just ONE is needed to make the theory right, and still none is found. What a coincidence from all those fossils (even those dinosaurs who are older than middle stages of evolution) that none is found in between...

And at the end:

"How can you disbelieve in God when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned."

I don't hate people who don't believe, I just feel sorry for them. Still, I'm never giving up to explain and bring truth among those who cannot find it alone. They don't have to accept it for whole life, but I will still spend my whole life in trying, that's what life is about. Peace.

**Potus-Mat** 2011-11-29, 18:35

Axel VIII wrote:
LadyYume wrote:This topic is a little touchy so I'll keep mine simple. I believe there is a God.
I also find it hard to believe some big bang made every little detail down to the smallest atom and cell there is. If you think about every system such as the photosynthesis in the leaves and the functions of our organs to do what they're designed to do, it's truly remarkable. But that is just me.
But for those who have their own beliefs I don't think it's right to condemn them for it. It's their lifestyle, their choice in what they believe in. Such things are a truly personal and shouldn't be dictated by extremist. :c
i also have had this tought
the big bang couldn't make me this perfect
by perfect i eman breathing, exhaling the bad
heart pumping
perfect shape of body
2 legs
2 arms
perfect!

Simply put, Axel, you are one of the lesser things brought into being by laws of the universe. Consider stars: giant masses of fusion, a state of matter that is pretty much reaction given form. Or consider, say, a deck. Forty cards, countless forms, all decided by a shuffling of cards. Countless duels, countless events, all caused by chaos. Not the best analogy, but still. Duels are not predestined (there is no Heart Of The Cards), and neither is life.

**Prince Vegeta** 2011-11-29, 22:40

Potus-Mat wrote:
Axel VIII wrote:
LadyYume wrote:This topic is a little touchy so I'll keep mine simple. I believe there is a God.
I also find it hard to believe some big bang made every little detail down to the smallest atom and cell there is. If you think about every system such as the photosynthesis in the leaves and the functions of our organs to do what they're designed to do, it's truly remarkable. But that is just me.
But for those who have their own beliefs I don't think it's right to condemn them for it. It's their lifestyle, their choice in what they believe in. Such things are a truly personal and shouldn't be dictated by extremist. :c
i also have had this tought
the big bang couldn't make me this perfect
by perfect i eman breathing, exhaling the bad
heart pumping
perfect shape of body
2 legs
2 arms
perfect!
Simply put, Axel, you are one of the lesser things brought into being by laws of the universe. Consider stars: giant masses of fusion, a state of matter that is pretty much reaction given form. Or consider, say, a deck. Forty cards, countless forms, all decided by a shuffling of cards. Countless duels, countless events, all caused by chaos. Not the best analogy, but still. Duels are not predestined (there is no Heart Of The Cards), and neither is life.

tru there is no heart of the cards but you can't say there's no such thing as destiny
read revelations from the bible
tell me none of that happened or is happening because trust me if you read it then you will know destiny is waiting to strike

**Potus-Mat** 2011-11-29, 23:13

Axel VIII wrote: tru there is no heart of the cards but you can't say there's no such thing as destiny
read revelations from the bible
tell me none of that happened or is happening because trust me if you read it then you will know destiny is waiting to strike

The secret of doomsday prophecies (as well as fortune cookies) is to use signs that would reasonably be attributed to recurring phenomena (a war between two lands, a plague, et cetera). Then, people will use that connection to stretch other events that have happened to make it seem like the prophecy is being fulfilled, be it for monetary gain, paranoia, or just to make themselves feel smart. People have been predicting the end of time since the beginning of time, and have made it novel and untrustworthy.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-30, 04:05

Amy Cool wrote:"Surely God is not ashamed to set forth any parable– [that of] a mosquito or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that God means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! But He does not cause to err by it [any] except the transgressors"

Now lets take a look at this statement. Look at it carefully. "Parable that of a mosquito or any thing above that". Why mosquito? There are many other insects or animals or species in general, so why exactly a mosquito? It could be anything else and something had to be in this example so its just a random choice?

Now, although I find the whole statement fascinating to read. I think you use a bit of a tunnel vision in you mosquito example.
Why would the mosquito be uses in this way? Because in that time It was one of the lowest life forms people knew. It harasses humans and cattle. Spread decease and barely contributes to the food chain. By picking this as a base It could say anything above that. Because everything was considered better than a mosquito. Also, the knowledge of many types of insect where not very spread and well know. So saying there are a lot of insects to chose form is also a but short sighted. Also most of these insects where admired for what they could do. The mosquito was not admired.

And about the evolution thing. Fossils connecting ape and human have been discovered. The human migration and development steps have also been traced back with DNA. It shows how humanity spread across the world and evolved and changed in the many different variations we are now.
Also take in mind to make a fossil, situation have to be totally ideal. The reason we find most fossils from 1 period is because most of them died under these special conditions. Also the fossils of these lagers creatures like Dino’s are more easily preserved than animals of smaller size.

Also 1 thing I would like to know the opinion of someone who believes. Why was the single god religion so late to the party? Why were almost all religions before that multiple gods?

I really like seeing both sides of the story here though. There are not many places where people get to seriously discuss about this without going way of topic.

**Amy Cool** 2011-11-30, 07:46

Amy Cool wrote:"Surely God is not ashamed to set forth any parable– [that of] a mosquito or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that God means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! But He does not cause to err by it [any] except the transgressors"

Now lets take a look at this statement. Look at it carefully. "Parable that of a mosquito or any thing above that". Why mosquito? There are many other insects or animals or species in general, so why exactly a mosquito? It could be anything else and something had to be in this example so its just a random choice?

Ultimate lol wrote:Why would the mosquito be uses in this way? Because in that time It was one of the lowest life forms people knew. It harasses humans and cattle. Spread decease and barely contributes to the food chain. By picking this as a base It could say anything above that. Because everything was considered better than a mosquito. Also, the knowledge of many types of insect where not very spread and well know. So saying there are a lot of insects to chose form is also a but short sighted. Also most of these insects where admired for what they could do. The mosquito was not admired.

Since what I said has so much logic, its not hard for me to use your own words as even more proof of what I've said. Now you just said that knowledge of many types of insect where not very spread and well known, and that most of insects were admired of what they could do but mosquito was not, thats true. They did not know anything about it other than it sucks blood and is annoying. So if a human wrote the Book himself then he wouldn't name an example of something he did not know about at that time. He would name some insect that they admired at that time. God's choice of a mosquito example here was obvious, to show people something they could not know at that time, to show that the Book knows more than they do, and by that way, prove its His work and not human's. Isn't it beautiful how the Book told them about unknown, something that they underestimated for years, is in fact more complex than anything else they knew at that time.

Ultimate lol wrote:And about the evolution thing. Fossils connecting ape and human have been discovered.

Those were just guesses. They found fossils but they cannot prove 100% that they are forms of the middle stage between human and ape. More likely they say it looks almost same as Chimpanzee and in fact that it is one since they have not found any fossils of it yet and they still try to find that out. Something that is doubtful yet cannot be used still as a proof. I mean they still cannot announce it yet. They still cannot let people write books about race between human and ape. Why? Because its not proved 100% yet. All books and similar things about middle stages that exist today are all based on guesses.

Ultimate lol wrote:Also take in mind to make a fossil, situation have to be totally ideal. The reason we find most fossils from 1 period is because most of them died under these special conditions. Also the fossils of these lagers creatures like Dino’s are more easily preserved than animals of smaller size.

So if Dino's have been found and even millions of fossils of today's animals, then why exactly those in the middle stage of evolution are missing? Those fossils should be much bigger than animals today, so there is no logic in saying that animals of smaller size are harder preserved. Tons of fossils of creatures smaller than even a mosquito have been found so speaking of size does not stand. When you say they found fossils that connect humans and apes, you know how they proved existence of Dino's? They found so many fossils that denying it would be like saying Earth does not spin. If that fossil(s) they found in between human and ape really are some creatures in the middle stage then why we won't see millions of those fossils too? You say conditions must be ideal, so for those they found conditions were ideal but all others that should live in the same time they did not? Saying that, then there must have been similar occasions before or later, and yet it just happens to those fossils in the middle? That just few of them are found? This goes beyond every reasonable mind. Now using most powerful proof of evolution: the coincidence, its harder to believe that it all happened by coincidence because chances are so little, than to believe it is work of a higher being.

Ultimate lol wrote: The human migration and development steps have also been traced back with DNA. It shows how humanity spread across the world and evolved and changed in the many different variations we are now.

Yes, I know that they have been traced by DNA. But, do you know how they did that? They took human DNA from early stages and human DNA from today. And yes, we have changed, because climate was different, food was different and our intelligence was also different. And yes, from cave man we evolved into ygo playing pro's O_o. However, all those things have nothing to do with evolution. Human structure was same in cave man and in ygo man today. Organs, functions, everything was same. Reason for our "change" is our ability to adapt, to learn, thats how we are, we are only living things that learn and by that we change everything around us. Yet, when we try to change ourselves we end up in some weird mutations that die very soon. In fact all those mutations we try are always going backwards. They experiment with DNA and always come up with mutations that are what we call "retarded". That means they have some dysfunctions that make them inferior to us now. Meaning we failed to make ourselves change into more evolved beings than we are now. We still can only gather more knowledge.

Also there is one more thing scientists that believe in evolution hide. Tracing back DNA should come to proof that our DNA and the one from ape are one. Only that can prove us, being evolved from apes. Yet, that has not been the case.

Now I would like to say one more thing about that evolution. Of course mosquito example is perfect, because it comes from God Himself, and I will use it to prove more God's existence and disprove theory of evolution.

I stated only few miracles of a mosquito. Now it is time for more.

Mother mosquitoes have to find a suitable place for their eggs. The young emerging from their eggs need water in order to complete their stages of growth. This can be a muddy pool left by the rain, a swamp, a paddy field, a swimming pool or even a few drops of water in a tin can. Mosquitoes have a preference for still water, as this kind of water contains plants that can photosynthesize and thus enrich the water with oxygen, which is one of the most important requirements of the larvae.

The mosquito eggs can develop in any environment where there is water, but even so, a certain set of conditions is required. The hatching larvae have to go through various stages of development before they become mature mosquitoes, and at each stage the young mosquitoes have different needs. Moreover, drought or severe heat can hinder the development of the eggs. For this reason, the mother mosquito has to find an environment in which the young she will produce can comfortably complete their development.

So how does the mosquito find the most suitable environment? By sight, by smell, by guesswork, or by coincidence?

Let's illustrate with an example the difficulty the mosquito faces in finding the most suitable place for its eggs. Imagine you are trying to reach somewhere in a place that is full of hills, trees and hollows and you are walking under the hot sun without any means of help like a sunshade or a vehicle. You can imagine how tiring such a journey would be.

When we think how small a mosquito is, we can imagine how difficult, even impossible it could be to find a suitable place. However, the mosquito does this effortlessly and lays its eggs with ease. Thanks to a special receptor on the underside of its abdomen, it can determine whether the moisture content and temperature of the ground make it a suitable place for the eggs. It scans the ground tirelessly to find the most suitable place.

Let's give some thought to how a creature such as the mosquito can carry out the task of measuring the moisture content and temperature of the ground.

Conducting research into earth is quite a painstaking task. Human beings make use of specially designed devices to ascertain the degree of moisture, the age and the fertility of the earth and to determine what minerals and materials it contains. Detectors are used or the earth is probed and samples examined in a laboratory, because it is somewhat difficult to obtain reliable results from an operation-such as digging-without knowing what there is, how deep it is and how much of it there is. A mistake results in wasted effort, time and money, which is difficult to recoup.

As for the mosquito, it first scans the ground to get a conclusive result. It obtains information on the general state of the ground, evaluates its findings and makes a decision according to the conclusion it comes to. At this point it should not be forgotten that we are not talking about a fully equipped technical device, but a little creature only 10 mm (0.4 inch) in length.

Let's go over what has been explained so far and think about how a mosquito manages to do this.

A creature 10 mm (0.4 inch) in length is making a conscious investigation. Its aim is to find an environment for its eggs which will meet the needs of the hatching young. The first thing we need to think about is how the mosquito knows what requirements its eggs have.

The mosquito has no knowledge of concepts such as temperature change and humidity rate. For example, it does not know the moisture content, the water content of a unit volume of earth. Nor does it know that the enzymes and proteins in the eggs will be activated by the right degree of moisture and heat. It would of course be unreasonable to think that the mosquito knows what protein and enzymes are, what they are for, under what conditions they will be activated to ensure the development of the egg, and how to look ahead and act on the basis of this knowledge.

In that case, how is it that a mosquito knows that it has to find the right degree of moisture and heat?

The mosquito is an insect with no capacity for such talents as thinking or learning. Nor is there any question of its receiving any kind of training. So what is the knowledge that makes this insect act in accordance with a specific aim?

The second important detail is the technical equipment the mosquito uses when conducting its research. The mosquito is created with an organ that is in exactly the right place to give an accurate assessment of heat and moisture.

But how did the mosquito come to acquire such an organ? Did the mosquito decide to fix a kind of "detector" to its body as a result of its observations and trials on the needs of its young? And then on the basis of this decision, did it make some changes to its own body? Or was it part of the imaginary "evolutionary process" that one day quite by chance an organ, which again by chance is capable of measuring heat and moisture, was appended to the body of the first mosquito to appear on the scene?

Naturally, none of these scenarios is plausible. They evoke hundreds of questions that invalidate the evolutionists' explanation of coincidence. Given the impossibility of the evolutionists' claims let us further emphasize their lack of logic by supposing that this organ appeared by chance. First of all, it is not only this sensitive receptor of the mosquito that needs to be perfect but all the other organs too. Because, an organ that is not in perfect working order or which makes incomplete measurements, for example only of moisture or heat, is of no use, for it would lead to the extinction of the species.

The next question that springs to mind is "How did the mosquito find out what this organ is for and how to use it?"

It is obvious that the mosquito is not able to install a special scanner in its own body any more than it can pass on information to future generations regarding the purpose and use of this scanner.

There is a perfect harmony in the characteristics of the mosquito, which could not be the product of coincidence. Also the mosquito has to emerge in a fully-fledged state, or it would not be possible for it to live. Seeing all these requirements (there is complete book of it and I stated only few more in this post) it is sure that mosquito could not develop step by step, because its eggs would die in those trials by chance. It had to be exact as it is now from the beginning else the mosquito would never survive or come to this point as it is now. Same is with it in the future: If it changes any characteristic that it has now, its species would die because it cannot survive in other conditions. Some would think that all its characteristics happened by coincidence at once, meeting its requirements? Chance that it happens are like zero, an absolute zero. Even if it does happen, what about evolution. Everything has to evolve from something created by chance at start right? Its not possible for human just to start from scratch, we had to evolve from apes, right? Then its same with mosquito, it had to evolve from another form, right? But, we have seen that mosquito need exact requirements it has now to exist. This means no form could make it to mosquito step by step, its either at once or never. This means that the mosquito is created. It is God Who creates the mosquito in its perfect form. Each characteristic of the mosquito acquaints us with the incomparable creative art of God. In the following statement of the Book, God gives an example to illustrate the perfection in His creation:

"It was He Who created the seven heavens one above the other. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again-do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your eyes will in the end be dazzled and exhausted!"

Ultimate lol wrote:Also 1 thing I would like to know the opinion of someone who believes. Why was the single god religion so late to the party? Why were almost all religions before that multiple gods?

From the 1st man on Earth, monotheistic religion is there. It is obvious that people are different and we, that believe, know of devil who influences people and changes their mind states. So people became polytheistic too. Still, monotheism is there from 1st day of human creation. That is what states in the Book. However, no one could find evidence of just polytheistic religions existing at some certain point or even before monotheistic religions. There were always people who believed in the single God, its just their number was so small that it wasn't even counted. When the number goes down to its extinction, the God refreshes human minds and gives them another proof, Man or Book to follow. He tolerated it all up to the last Book and Man he sent. Reason that He stated no other Book will ever emerge from Him is because our minds were now ready to use their own intelligence to see that there is only one God. We have so many proofs now, and as time goes, we just find new proofs with science. That was our last chance to change and there will be no more 2nd chances anymore. Time will show.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-30, 09:22

Amy Cool wrote:They did not know anything about it other than it sucks blood and is annoying. So if a human wrote the Book himself then he wouldn't name an example of something he did not know about at that time. He would name some insect that they admired at that time.

I said the mosquito was chosen because he was a good bottom. If humans would take an insect they’d admire it would not be a base point and the text would not included all that was meant by it.

Ultimate lol wrote:And about the evolution thing. Fossils connecting ape and human have been discovered.

Amy Cool wrote:
Those were just guesses. They found fossils but they cannot prove 100% that they are forms of the middle stage between human and ape.

They found a skeleton that could stand up straight and walk, but ran on all fours. No Ape nor human does that. Not saying this is 100% prove but you can say that about everything.

Ultimate lol wrote:Also take in mind to make a fossil, situation have to be totally ideal. The reason we find most fossils from 1 period is because most of them died under these special conditions. Also the fossils of these lagers creatures like Dino’s are more easily preserved than animals of smaller size.

So if Dino's have been found and even millions of fossils of today's animals, then why exactly those in the middle stage of evolution are missing?

They are not, they just don’t stand out.

Those fossils should be much bigger than animals today, so there is no logic in saying that animals of smaller size are harder preserved.

Smaller = more fragile
Not saying that there are no smaller fossils but chances that they are either: Not found, damaged by the pressure of earth or eroded away are way larger with smaller animals

You know how they proved existence of Dino's? They found so many fossils that denying it would be like saying Earth does not spin.
There where WAY more dino’s then there where humans. Therefore there are WAY more fossils of dino’s than humans. You could have figured that. Also, most dino fossils are from for example volcanic eruptions and tar pits. Volcano’s are not very common in early human times. Tar pits we could escape way more than dino’s. Ths there are less fossils yes. It’s logical.

Ultimate lol wrote: The human migration and development steps have also been traced back with DNA. It shows how humanity spread across the world and evolved and changed in the many different variations we are now.

Yes, I know that they have been traced by DNA. But, do you know how they did that? They took human DNA from early stages and human DNA from today.

No I am talking about a different research. They took DNA of groups of different people all over the world. then they looked at the DNA of each and search for similarities and differences. This way they could see where a group split and where they went. Say a group was in the middle east. They all had gene A, then they split. One group gained gene B the other gene C. however you can still trace them back with gene A. In the end it formed a kind of tree spreading all over the world.

And yes, we have changed, However, all those things have nothing to do with evolution.

Change is the definition of evolution

Human structure was same in cave man and in ygo man today. Organs, functions, everything was same.

Not true. We changed quite a lot. Obviously or brain size increased and if you look at the human body we are far from perfect. We have a few elements for example we don’t use anymore.
We have a small tail bone
We have organs without a current function

Meaning we failed to make ourselves change into more evolved beings than we are now.

We could mutate ourselves, crops and animals into improved/different versions. It has been done on small scale. It’s however currently considered Immoral/unethical to do so. Probably did not stop some parties though.

Tracing back DNA should come to proof that our DNA and the one from ape are one. Only that can prove us, being evolved from apes.

The DNA of chips and humans match for around 99% currently already.

Now I would like to say one more thing about that evolution. Of course mosquito example is perfect.

A story like you wrote can be written for all kinds of creatures, including ourselves. And I get your point on it the first time (a bit to long read for what it needs to prove).
Now I’m not saying it is not impressive what it can do and how its pretty perfect but you say that it always has been like this or else it would die.
This only partially true. The mosquito is 1 of the oldest insects out there. The dino’s even had them. Yet they survived the extinction of the Dino’s while the surroundings definitively changed around them drastically right?
How? It evolved. It adapted. And so it’s species lived on. Evolution is not that a creature get an organ from one point to another. It takes thousands of years. This is also the reason we didn’t change as much for us to notice on first site.
Evolution is that you have 1000 of the same creatures. They are however all a bit different. Some positive some negative. Who is most likely to survive? The positive different. So each generation is an improvement of the other. The organ you speak of could have started out as a DNA “mistake” that ended up being useful for his survival so he could pas it on.

Now you probably knew this part already but would like your opinion on what would be wrong with this then?

Ultimate lol wrote:Also 1 thing I would like to know the opinion of someone who believes. Why was the single god religion so late to the party? Why were almost all religions before that multiple gods?

devil who influences people and changes their mind states.

A bit crude to cut it here but this is what it comes down to right? The devil influenced some of the fist people to believe in multiple gods right? No need to discuss why. This is enough for me (no offence intended)

And please keep the posts a bit shorter its makes discussing it a bit easier.

And please do not see this comment as bashing yours. This is just me reflecting your comment on my current knowledge. Not saying I’m 100% right here. I’m open for discussing everything.

**Amy Cool** 2011-11-30, 14:12

I'm not offended of course, I made an impact on this thread because I wanted to discuss and thats what we do here, we still discuss and I must say that I start to like this discussion Wink

Ultimate lol wrote:They found a skeleton that could stand up straight and walk, but ran on all fours. No Ape nor human does that. Not saying this is 100% prove but you can say that about everything.

We don't know what it is yet so like you say its not 100% sure and lets just wait and see what will it be at the end Wink

Ultimate lol wrote:Also take in mind to make a fossil, situation have to be totally ideal. The reason we find most fossils from 1 period is because most of them died under these special conditions. Also the fossils of these lagers creatures like Dino’s are more easily preserved than animals of smaller size.

Amy Cool wrote:So if Dino's have been found and even millions of fossils of today's animals, then why exactly those in the middle stage of evolution are missing?

Ultimate lol wrote:They are not, they just don’t stand out.

-> This is just assuming they exist not a proof they do. But when I say the opposite, They don't exist, since they have not been found yet, thats my temporary proof. "If you can't prove something exists, then it does not exist until proved otherwise".

Amy Cool wrote:Those fossils should be much bigger than animals today, so there is no logic in saying that animals of smaller size are harder preserved.

Ultimate lol wrote:Smaller = more fragile
Not saying that there are no smaller fossils but chances that they are either: Not found, damaged by the pressure of earth or eroded away are way larger with smaller animals

What you say about middle stage smaller size compared to Dino's big size making them less chances to survive till today would be logical if they did not found millions of fossils of today's animals which are even smaller than those in the middle. So what about these, even smaller ones, why are they found when they have smallest chance to stay among those bigger ones? Again, a simple coincidence? Well, speaking of millions of years, many of those coincidences had to happen to hide whole stage of evolution there.

Amy Cool wrote:And yes, we have changed, However, all those things have nothing to do with evolution.

Ultimate lol wrote:Change is the definition of evolution

Religion also states that humans are living things on top of food chain, being able to do what no being could before, learning. However, I was speaking of evolution part where our structure, our organism should change in time, for example that we did not have some organs we have today or so. None of those changes occurred. By this I mean, they have not been discovered yet.

Ultimate lol wrote:Not true. We changed quite a lot. Obviously or brain size increased and if you look at the human body we are far from perfect. We have a few elements for example we don’t use anymore.
We have a small tail bone
We have organs without a current function

Can you name some of those organs without a function? I'm really curious there.

About tailbone itself...Heard of Hans Spemann? The Primary Organizer? He won a noble price proving that tailbone is the "designer" of your body. Without it, we would not be able to grow into what we are. It is responsible for organizing the body in development stage. That is its main function. Now on another side we have evolution scientists tell us that tailbone was a tail once, having main functions in balance/movement. Well, humans balance system is complex including brain and ear and other body parts but not tailbone. Seeing it from the view of evolution, human adapted and and tail was no more needed to take part in the balance? Yea, right. That makes so much sense for me. No offense here. Its just that I can't believe something that is just a simple assuming that it was a coincidence. On another note lets take a look what Hans found more. He found out that tailbone cells cannot be degraded or destroyed O_o. So what the hell is that? It means that tailbone does not decompose in ground. You can die, all cells can die but tailbone does not. It stays. It means that if we are buried in the ground, dead for millions of years, our whole body would decompose but tailbone would stay. Thats right. It has been proved by Hans. No special conditions needed for it. It just stays no matter what. Muscles, fat and bone marrow will be decomposed but tailbone cells stay. They tried it by burning them totally and still it was the same. They boiled it and still was the same. They did many other things but still, it was the same. Tailbone survives. Now lets take a look what the Prophet said about this:

"All of the Sons of Adam (men) will decay except for the bone of coccyx (tailbone). From it he (man) was created and by it he will be reconstructed."
In another statement he says also:
"There is nothing of the human body that does not decay except one bone; that is the little bone at the end of the coccyx of which the human body will be recreated on the Day of Resurrection."

He would not know that if he wasn't taught by the God Himself.

Ultimate lol wrote:We could mutate ourselves, crops and animals into improved/different versions. It has been done on small scale. It’s however currently considered Immoral/unethical to do so. Probably did not stop some parties though.

When they make "Captain America" and not some retard, that dies soon or cannot think wisely or has body dysfunctions, call me Wink

Yes it is true that some new fruits were found by "mutating" and we use them today, but that is not mutation, its just mixing species like with human race, for example black man and white woman, their child will be mixture of both but still a human, nothing mutated, same structure like every other human.

Ultimate lol wrote:The DNA of chips and humans match for around 99% currently already.

Yes its true. However it doesn't mean anything yet. Here is the proof:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=9&article=1038
If that is not enough on DNA and connections with it then you are always free to investigate more on that topic. I will just take one part of that article: "Of the 5,000 best-known human genes, 75% have matches in the worm". That small worm...

Ultimate lol wrote:A story like you wrote can be written for all kinds of creatures, including ourselves. And I get your point on it the first time (a bit to long read for what it needs to prove).
Now I’m not saying it is not impressive what it can do and how its pretty perfect but you say that it always has been like this or else it would die.
This only partially true. The mosquito is 1 of the oldest insects out there. The dino’s even had them. Yet they survived the extinction of the Dino’s while the surroundings definitively changed around them drastically right?
How? It evolved. It adapted. And so it’s species lived on. Evolution is not that a creature get an organ from one point to another. It takes thousands of years. This is also the reason we didn’t change as much for us to notice on first site.
Evolution is that you have 1000 of the same creatures. They are however all a bit different. Some positive some negative. Who is most likely to survive? The positive different. So each generation is an improvement of the other. The organ you speak of could have started out as a DNA “mistake” that ended up being useful for his survival so he could pas it on.

You say those things of course but just assuming it. Theory of evolution can only be proved and used as scientific fact if those missing millions of fossils of the middle stage dig out somehow. For me they are simply not the same creatures. They just look similar. They may be same family like chimpanzee and gorilla, yet they are different things. For now it is so, until evolution theory is proved to be right.

Amy Cool wrote:devil who influences people and changes their mind states.

Ultimate lol wrote:A bit crude to cut it here but this is what it comes down to right? The devil influenced some of the fist people to believe in multiple gods right? No need to discuss why. This is enough for me (no offence intended)

Yep thats it. All those deaths by human acts, illnesses, broken marriages, not being able to control yourself, rapes, thieves, wars, depressions, all those bad things are suggesting the presence of the devil. How can a good raised man, influenced by many good things around him, suddenly become evil and kill people just like that? Animal instinct of survival? You are not in a war, not in a life threatening situation and yet u have to kill. I'm talking about "psychos", serial killers whose brains are 100% healthy but still need to kill or rape or do some other bad thing. Some chemical reactions maybe? Hormones response? Seeking for power? All considered human nature? Well you can see it as you wish, I see it like that.

**You Mad Bro?** 2011-11-30, 18:27

Metta World Peace wrote:
Hunter23 wrote:Read the bible and you will find the anwsers you need and if really god exists

All of the scriptures prove that God exists. But over time man has corrupted them and changed it to his liking. - And that's what the holy Quran is for, perfection of all the past scriptures and it will NEVER be tampered with.

I agree with you.

**CheyMcFly** 2011-12-01, 00:43

Axel VIII wrote:
LadyYume wrote:This topic is a little touchy so I'll keep mine simple. I believe there is a God.

I also find it hard to believe some big bang made every little detail down to the smallest atom and cell there is. If you think about every system such as the photosynthesis in the leaves and the functions of our organs to do what they're designed to do, it's truly remarkable. But that is just me.

But for those who have their own beliefs I don't think it's right to condemn them for it. It's their lifestyle, their choice in what they believe in. Such things are a truly personal and shouldn't be dictated by extremist. :c

i also have had this tought
the big bang couldn't make me this perfect
by perfect i eman breathing, exhaling the bad
heart pumping
perfect shape of body
2 legs
2 arms
perfect!

It completely could

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