Blackwing Shura

So I was playing versus ARRlitteration... He attacked with Shura my face-down Ryko. I destroyed Shura, but he still summoned a monster. I told him he can`t, but he just told me "Stop bitching". I posted him a Yu-Gi-Oh! Wiki link in which is said:

In order for its effect to activate, “Blackwing - Shura the Blue Flame” must be face-up on the field when the monster it destroyed by battle is sent to the Graveyard. This means:

If Shura and the other monster destroy each other by battle (equal ATK), Shura’s effect does not activate.
If Shura is destroyed by a Flip Effect like “Man-Eater Bug,” Shura’s effect does not activate.
If Shura is flipped face-down after damage calculation by a card effect, such as “Desertapir,” Shura’s effect does not activate.
If Shura is removed from play by battling “D.D. Warrior,” Shura’s effect does not activate.
If Shura is destroyed by an effect after the monster it destroyed by battle was sent to the Graveyard, such as “Michizure,” Shura’s effect DOES activate, and you can Special Summon a monster.

But he still was butthurted as fuck and din`t want to return his monster.
I'm the right one, right? And is there a way to report people?

Shura's effect needs him to be face-up on the field to confirm that the monster it destroyed will be sent to the graveyard so if it's not face-up on the field when that happens, its effect will not activate! And you're the right one!

Ryko's flip effect activates in substep 6 of the Damage Step, a step which is precisely when the flip effect of the attacked monster activates, and Shura is destroyed here, and it goes to the GY BEFORE Ryko. Ryko is sent to the GY in the last substep, 7, of the Damage Step, which basically involves monster(s) destroyed by battle leaving the field. Shura's trigger effect may be activated at this time during substep 7, if it is alive to do so. In the GY, it can't do anything, and Ryko would see to it that it IS in the GY, unable to do anything before it gets sent to the GY as well.

TLDR Ryko goes to GY AFTER Shura, Shura can't activate the effect because it has to be on the field to do so.

You're correct. JDC explained it pretty well.

Learned this from YGO, Over The Nexus. Was pretty ticked off at first, but then I realized Shura had to be on the field to activate his effect.

Yes you are playing correctly. I hate when people play their decks and don't know rulings, but I guess everyone has to start somewhere

The ideal explanation is as follows.

Neither Shura-type cards nor Blue-Thunder-type cards need to be face-up on the field to activate their effects, AS LONG AS they were face-up on the field when their effects were triggered.

Triggering an effect is not activating an effect. Essentially, it's "what you do to make it ok to activate a Trigger Effect, Trigger-style Spell/Trap Effect, or Trigger-style Quick Effect."


The only reason people SAY Shura needs to be face-up to activate is because they're misinterpreting the circumstances. Shura doesn't need to be face-up; it just so happens that nothing exists yet in YGO that can remove Shura from the field between the point where Shura's effect is triggered and the point where Shura's effect is activated.

Shura needs to be face-up to trigger; it's always face-up at its own activation just because nothing in YGO can kill it between its triggering and its activation yet.

Atem have an ideal explanation with T.G. arche-type doesn't search if they are not in the graveyard during the end-phase?
they have been triggered, just haven't activate.

@ Hyaweh: You sure T.G. doesn't search if not in grave? Whereas i can't find an official ruling, they seem to me like Saber Darksoul, whose effect can work multiple times during the same turn if the card goes to grave multiple times, even if Darksoul isn't in grave come end phase.

I'm sure, it's written in the exvc rulebook PDF, Check atem post in the thread before posting to get the link.
also, Darksoul is a TCG-Exclusive Card which usually it's ruling can't be generalized to another card, and Genex Neutron have a more similar wording to T.G. Monster instead of Darksoul, except for their trigger.

I think I like Atem's explanation better than my own. Are you a judge or something? Anyway, just to illustrate Atem's point with a different example:

I'll use Six Samurai - Zanji. Its effect is basically, if it fails to destroy a monster by battle while another sam is on its side of the field, then it blows that monster up at the end of the damage step. Say Zanji is rammed into a monster with higher attack (and there's no monster-banishing cards around), and is killed instead. It's effect will be triggered during damage calculation, when it's destroyed, but still face-up on the field. At the end of the damage step, it gets sent to the GY, and that is when the triggered effect (mandatory in Zanji's case) activates, from the GY, blowing up the other monster. With Shura, if it's not face up once the other monster hits the GY, the trigger condition is not met, because Shura has to be face-up on the field for the trigger condition for its SS effect to be met. Ryko makes sure that Shura is in the GY before the trigger (destroyed *AND* sent to GY) applies.

JDC wrote:I think I like Atem's explanation better than my own. Are you a judge or something? Anyway, just to illustrate Atem's point with a different example:

This is quite irrelevant, there may be people out there who are not judges for any number of reasons we are not expecting but are efficient with rulings, much more than 70% - 80% of the judges are.

True, but I was curious as to whether Atem is a judge or not.

I can vouch for the accuracy to. I fell victim to it when play testing Blackfeathers(wings, whatever) in Over The Nexus and hadn't known about that limitation to his effect until I got blasted by Ryko and was out a Shura wth nothing to show for it.

Nope he don't get to summon because shura has to be on the field to activate effect.

@JDC

Atem is our head judge.

He probably meant an actual one.

I'm not. Don't have the time to actually go to events. Knowing a game's rules is one thing; being able to regularly make it to events is another entirely.

Further, I never got the impression DN even HAD anyone picked out as "judge head" - I just know it's seldom that someone 'round here can show me up when it comes to asking a question, and that when it does happen, it's from a few specific particular users.

I'd reccomend we didn't appoint official "judge heads" until we've got some sort of appeal process worked out for the players, as that's essentially the one reason to have "judge heads" in the first place.



That said, you guys've lucked out in getting my attention - I'm one of the few guys who isn't Lv2 certified or higher with enough info on hand to argue John Danker to a standstill.

The higher you go in terms of talking to judges and authorities, the more you find that certification numbers don't bloody matter as much as how precisely, clearly, and quickly you solve problems.

People make the mistake of thinking Lv automatically conveys knowledge and potency - that's silly. Lv1, for example, is an open-book simple questionnaire that any Duelist with a few extra minutes could ace. It's shamefully easy, to the point where not being able to ace the test every time gives you a small HANDICAP in competitive play.

Lvs 2 and 3 aren't nearly as easy - and they aren't things you can do online w/ an open-book deal.

Further, matters of Player Management are as important as matters of Rules Knowledge, if not moreso. Judges aren't just gameplay Q&A, they're event enforcement.


Matters of judging are not "Authority Equals Asskicking". They are matters of "Asskicking Equals Authority". Your number increases in relation to how much problem-ass you kick; you don't kick more ass because your number increases.



There's a reason I keep pushing folks to read and reread the Konami Policy Documents - I'm not always going to be around to help you guys, and when I'm not, you're going to need to know how to properly handle various situations.

Yes, I did mean a Konami judge. OFC, simply getting certification lvl X by itself doesn't mean much, as Atem said. Actually being able to do a lot of the stuff you're examined on IRL properly is far more important. Studying theory only goes so far. If I could find one of my cards with a Cossy ID I could actually try the lvl 1 judge test and have it submit properly (for a competitive player, it does seem easy enough... if you can't ace it every time, you're in trouble). What I don't like, is people assuming that you can't judge a ruling properly if you haven't even been to a YCS event (which is not possible for everyone), when they are in fact in the wrong.

http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/gameplay/rulings/RGBT%20Rules%20v1-2.pdf

That is from Konami official site saying you can't summon Shura unless it's face-up on the field.

"If Shura is destroyed by a Flip Effect like “Man-Eater Bug,” Shura’s effect does not activate."

Now I'm really no expert on rulings but Shura eff activates after it destroys a monster but since Ryko Flips and activates in Damage Step doesn't that mean he destroyed Shura before Shura got to trigger his effect while face-up.

Forget that moron, you are correct. Shura has to be on the field for his effect to activate, just like biofalcon can't use his effect on himself because he requires himself to be on the field. YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!

Now I'm really no expert on rulings but Shura eff activates after it destroys a monster but since Ryko Flips and activates in Damage Step doesn't that mean he destroyed Shura before Shura got to trigger his effect while face-up.

Let me make this clear, because it's quite important, even though its subtle...
The effect that lets Shura special summon a BW monster with 1500- ATT from the deck to the field states that it may be activated after Shura destroys a monster by battle *and sends it to the graveyard*. If a monster is destroyed by battle, it does NOT go to the graveyard straight away, it remains on the field until it is destroyed by a card effect, or otherwise removed, or until the last part of the damage step, which is when monsters destroyed by battle are sent to the graveyard. Both of those conditions must be met before the optional trigger ability may be activated. If Shura is not face-up on the field when the trigger condition for the ability is satisfied, then it cannot be activated. I would refer you to my 6S Zanji example for how a monster may have an effect activate in the GY, even though it was triggered on the field after being destroyed by battle. You need to understand how the damage step works to grasp this.

The Damage Step is split into 7 sub-steps, some of which may be skipped depending on certain cards (Catastor's effect causes damage calculation to be skipped because the monster is blown up in step 1 and sent to the GY right away).
Step 1 - Activate trigger effects/apply continuous effects that happen when a monster attacks, or battles (e.g. Catastor against a face-up non-dark monster, Jain)
Step 2 - If the target monster is face-down, flip it face up
Step 3 - Certain monster effects may activate at this time (e.g. Blast Sphere being attacked if it was face-down when attacked).
Step 4 - Damage calculation. Monsters destroyed by battle are destroyed here. Activating monster effects like Honest and Kalut here is usually the best way to play those cards, because only one chain is allowed in this sub-step of the damage step. You need to use effects like that before ATT of the attacker and ATT/DEF of the other monster are actually compared and used to determine what happens regarding monster destruction and battle damage.
Step 5 - Damage application. Battle damage calculated in step 4 is applied to the appropriate player (bear in mind certain cards can affect how this step, or the previous step, is carried out. e.g. This is the step where you'd pitch Kuriboh to negate battle damage to your LP).
Step 6 - Activate flip effect. If the monster being attacked was face-down when attacked, and it is a flip-effect monster, the effect activates now, bear in mind the monster is still on the field at this point, and monsters like Ryko can stop monsters like Shura from pulling of a SS because of this.
Step 7 - Monsters destroyed in step 4, and still on the field, are sent to the GY (or banished if something like DF, MC, Banisher of the whatever is face-up on the field).

JDC wrote:Let me make this clear, because it's quite important, even though its subtle...
The effect that lets Shura special summon a BW monster with 1500- ATT from the deck to the field states that it may be activated after Shura destroys a monster by battle *and sends it to the graveyard*. If a monster is destroyed by battle, it does NOT go to the graveyard straight away, it remains on the field until it is destroyed by a card effect, or otherwise removed, or until the last part of the damage step, which is when monsters destroyed by battle are sent to the graveyard. Both of those conditions must be met before the optional trigger ability may be activated. If Shura is not face-up on the field when the trigger condition for the ability is satisfied, then it cannot be activated. I would refer you to my 6S Zanji example for how a monster may have an effect activate in the GY, even though it was triggered on the field after being destroyed by battle. You need to understand how the damage step works to grasp this.

The Damage Step is split into 7 sub-steps, some of which may be skipped depending on certain cards (Catastor's effect causes damage calculation to be skipped because the monster is blown up in step 1 and sent to the GY right away).
Step 1 - Activate trigger effects/apply continuous effects that happen when a monster attacks, or battles (e.g. Catastor against a face-up non-dark monster, Jain)
Step 2 - If the target monster is face-down, flip it face up
Step 3 - Certain monster effects may activate at this time (e.g. Blast Sphere being attacked if it was face-down when attacked).
Step 4 - Damage calculation. Monsters destroyed by battle are destroyed here. Activating monster effects like Honest and Kalut here is usually the best way to play those cards, because only one chain is allowed in this sub-step of the damage step. You need to use effects like that before ATT of the attacker and ATT/DEF of the other monster are actually compared and used to determine what happens regarding monster destruction and battle damage.
Step 5 - Damage application. Battle damage calculated in step 4 is applied to the appropriate player (bear in mind certain cards can affect how this step, or the previous step, is carried out. e.g. This is the step where you'd pitch Kuriboh to negate battle damage to your LP).
Step 6 - Activate flip effect. If the monster being attacked was face-down when attacked, and it is a flip-effect monster, the effect activates now, bear in mind the monster is still on the field at this point, and monsters like Ryko can stop monsters like Shura from pulling of a SS because of this.
Step 7 - Monsters destroyed in step 4, and still on the field, are sent to the GY (or banished if something like DF, MC, Banisher of the whatever is face-up on the field).

Please don't attach numbers to the damage sub-steps, as for different people uses different charts, use the full name to elaborate it.

Well, there are 7 sub-steps for how it works in the site I will link below (which I treat as a reliable source, and hence I treat its explanation of the Damage Step as the official one), I don't see any reason not to number them, especially as they are very distinct with the way specific events can only happen in 1 of the 7 sub-steps.

In any case, http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Breakdown_of_the_Battle_Phase

This is how the damage step officially works, and it is split into 7 substeps, so there really is no reason NOT to number them. Having versions with different amount of sub-steps may prove misleading. I'd stick with this version. There are a couple of fixes (the WC games on the DS don't make it entirely clear which substep you're in, when you're given the opportunity to use certain cards, so I had to refer to the above website to clear things up).

Substep 1 - Start of the Damage Step - the description I gave here is ok, except that continuous effects are applied before trigger effects.
Substep 2 - Flipping the Face-Down Monster Face-Up - self-explanatory.
Substep 3 - Before damage calculation - As before. Note that in games like YGO WC2011, when it says it is before damage calculation, it is your last chance to activate cards like Honest, when in the actual TCG, that is substep 4, before you crunch the numbers. The video games don't go through each sub-step in detail (at least not explicitly), and mislead you into thinking you are one substep behind where you really are when you are given your final chance to use stuff like Honest.
Substep 4 - During Damage Calculation - As before. There is a fix based on what I saw in the wesbite, Kuriboh negates the damage here, rather than the following substep. In the WC 2011 game, it will say 'it is before damage application', and it actually means its 1 substep behind it, right here. 'Damage application' in that game is all about substep 5.
Substep 5 - Battle Damage - After Damage Calculation - As before.
Substep 6 - Resolve effects - As before, this deals with flip effects.
Substep 7 - End of the Damage Step - Monster(s) Destroyed by Battle are Sent to the Graveyard. This step is as before.

JDC wrote:
This is how the damage step officially works

Never make the mistake of citing anything off the wikia as "official" in my presence. If you're going to link to something and profess "official" status, you will do so RIGHTLY, by linking it to Konami's own info.

Anything else is garbage in comparison.

One thing I hate about wiki is that anyone can change it so if I want to go to a YCS with a random card I could change the rulings a month ahead on wiki thats why wikis worthless to some points and going to the Konami's site of "Official" rulings.

If you're talking about ruling.
No, I doubt you can.
someone is watching wiki's log, and re-editing any post without official source.
yours won't last long enough for a month.

I hope it's someone instead of so algorithm ._.

Mango wrote:One thing I hate about wiki is that anyone can change it so if I want to go to a YCS with a random card I could change the rulings a month ahead on wiki thats why wikis worthless to some points and going to the Konami's site of "Official" rulings.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

1. If your theory is true, then you have yet tried whatever you're saying

2. Like I've mentioned somewhere else, Konami's blog contains full of misplays misleading other players

3. Similar to #1, your theory is false, if you edit the ruling into something that's wrong, it will be changed back by others who actually knows what they're doing

4. If you're referring to the tip section, don't bother, that place is not meant for rulings, people who makes edits don't check the tip section and see if there are wrong rulings (Unless someone pass by and sees it)