Reborn Tengu

**{EX} TheVoid** 2011-12-12, 02:41

rulings wrote:This effect does not activate if Reborn Tengu is removed from the field while face-down.

Okay this ruling has been asked so much lately that I am forced to dedicate a topic to it. The common question is:

"I attacked my opponents face-down defense position Reborn Tengu and destroyed it, does he get the effect?"

Now the problem with this is people look at that ruling and tell me I'm wrong when I tell them yes. Why is that? This ruling refers to several ways of being taken off the field, banished, returned to hand, or destroyed. It refers to the examples such as Trishula, Dragon of the Ice Barrier banishing it while face-down, Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier returning it to hand while face-down, or Dark Hole destroying this face-down monster. All these situations get you the ruling above and the answer "No, the effect doesn't activate."

So, why this topic Void? Simple. A lot of players don't understand the substeps of an attack and think attacking this card face-down stops the effect. For a reason I cannot understand, players think this card doesn't flip when attacked. Here is why it is flipped:

Yugioh Wikia wrote:
Substep 2: Flipping the Face-Down Monster Face-Up
Substep 7: End of the Damage Step - Monster(s) Destroyed by Battle are Sent to the Graveyard

As you can clearly see, Step 2 is the flipping of the monster into face-up, step 7 is when it is destroyed. It is face-up from steps 2-7 so it is destroyed while face-up on the field. I am not sure why this confuses players, but the substeps are clearly there. If anyone wants me to add to this article please post it, and admins please use this article to help you. Im sure Im not the only one who was told Im a bad admin who needs to be demoted for making this ruling.

As requested by S.S. Anaconda
- Topic on damage-step breakdown by VantageSP
- Breakdown of the Battle Phase Yugioh Wikia article

**Optimus96** 2011-12-12, 14:22

Thanks for posting this.

Im not mainly saying thanks because of the Reborn Tengu ruling, but mainly because that it gives a little more detail of the Battle Phase when a monster is attacking and that I think is one of the top things that I think players need to learn befor playing competivite Yu-Gi-Oh.

**S.S.A.** 2011-12-12, 14:25

prob should link the 7 stages of the battle phase in here somewhere

**{EX} TheVoid** 2011-12-12, 15:33

Done.

**kangtuji** 2011-12-23, 10:32

Just happen to me, and I got called idiot & dick head

Story

Opp use creature swap... swapping my tengu & his effect veiler
He attack, I use Book of moon, end turn
I summon Hanzo, attacking my own tengu
I summon another tengu from deck, and conversation happen :

Log

Pompous Panda: Hi, good luck
Pompous Panda: eff
Pompous Panda: banish
kangtuji: chain
Pompous Panda: k
kangtuji: send both tmonster to grave
Pompous Panda: transformation is still banished you know, so the monster is as well
Pompous Panda: eff valley
kangtuji has lost 1600 life points
Pompous Panda: eff
Pompous Panda: eff piper
kangtuji: no
Pompous Panda: Yes
kangtuji: If this card is in your Graveyard during your Standby Phase and you control no Spell or Trap Cards, you can Special Summon it.
Pompous Panda: ah, ok
kangtuji has lost 3200 life points
Pompous Panda has lost 1700 life points
kangtuji: response
Pompous Panda: negate
Pompous Panda: no
Pompous Panda: It doesn't work
kangtuji: if destoyed by effect yes doesn't work
Pompous Panda: That only works with cards that activate when sent to the grave
Pompous Panda: such as sangan
kangtuji: but if battle it will flip before get destryoed
Pompous Panda: that happens as soon as it's removed from the field
kangtuji: sub step 3 monster are flipped before get dstroyed
Pompous Panda: The effect would activate before it hist the grave
kangtuji: ?
kangtuji: what effect are you talking
Pompous Panda: Tengu
kangtuji: tengu effect active if it killed by battle
Pompous Panda: When it's removed from the field that effect activates
kangtuji: if it was destroyed by card effect while face down it doesn't work
Pompous Panda: but it wasn't in your control when that effect activated
kangtuji: yes, it removed from field
Pompous Panda: YES
Pompous Panda: But it didn't hit the grave
kangtuji: doesn't matter which side, just like sangan
kangtuji: lol it is on my graveyard, how you said it is not hit grave
Pompous Panda: No, because sangan activates when it hits the grave on your side
Pompous Panda: Tengu's activates before it hits the grave
kangtuji: so ? tengu active whenever it leave field
kangtuji: doestn' matter which side, the owner get effect
Pompous Panda: Yes, but before it hits the graveyard
Pompous Panda: Yes it does
kangtuji: and sangan active in field not grave
Pompous Panda: Because it wasn't in your control when his effect activated
kangtuji: doesn't matter
kangtuji: it work like sangan
Pompous Panda: When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, add 1 monster with 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand.
Pompous Panda: Look
Pompous Panda: It requires to hit the grave first
kangtuji: yes, look : When this card is removed from the field, Special Summon 1 "Reborn Tengu" from your Deck.
Pompous Panda: Tengu's effect happens before
kangtuji: when is card is REMOVED FROM THE FIELD
kangtuji: yes, it happen
kangtuji: so I get summon
Pompous Panda: Because it isn't required to go anywhere for that to happen
kangtuji: indeed
Pompous Panda: Just when it leaves the field
kangtuji: so tengu does get effect even it waqs on opp side
kangtuji: just like sangan
Pompous Panda: so it would happen like this: Tengu leaves field, effect activates, tengu goes to grave.
Pompous Panda: IT'S NOT JUST LIKE SANGAN
kangtuji: go ask admin or find googling about tengu facedown
Pompous Panda: It's nothing like sangan
kangtuji: whatever dude, you just googling tengu facedown
Pompous Panda: It doesn't matter if it's facedown or not
kangtuji: tengu get the effect regardless which side
Pompous Panda: Either way it wouldn't work
kangtuji: lol
kangtuji: either way it IS working
kangtuji: what are you smoking
Pompous Panda: No
Pompous Panda: I'm not smoking anything, don't insult me you idiot
kangtuji: yes, and take 1700 damage
kangtuji: I am not insulting, you are the one did it
Pompous Panda: I'm not taking shit from a dick head who solemn judgements sangan and doesn't read up on one of the most used cards in the game
Pompous Panda has left the duel

Images

Question

Please explain why my own tengu on opp side (face-down) doesn't get it effect when it is killed by battle

**LuzCeleste** 2011-12-23, 10:37

Question... Catastor's effect activates at the beginning o the damage step, which means the card is not flipped yet, since the flipping occurs in sub-step 2, so if Catastor attacks a face down tengu, does tengu flip? Then get his effect? Or does he die without getting it?

**kangtuji** 2011-12-23, 10:40

Simply remember catastor effect doesn't work on facedown monster

So monster will be flipped, and killed by battle not by catastor effect (catastor has 2200 atk, enought to take down almost anything that isn't labeled as BOSS monster)

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-23, 10:41

I spot a mistake made by you, Sangan's effect is activated in grave, not on field.
And what's with the "I'm not taking shit from a dick head who solemn judgements sangan and doesn't read up on one of the most used cards in the game" ?

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-23, 10:45

@ Kantuji: you get to search for another Tengu.

@ LuzCeleste: Catastor eff only activate if both the battling monsters are face-up. If you attack a face-down Tengu with Catastor, then Tengu is flipped & is destroyed by battle, not effect & get the search.

Another example would be if you book of moon an Opp Catastor & attack it with let's say Tengu for example, then catastor won't be able to activate it's effect & will be destroyed by battle.

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-23, 10:47

BlackwingRa wrote:I spot a mistake made by you, Sangan's effect is activated in grave, not on field.
And what's with the "I'm not taking shit from a dick head who solemn judgements sangan and doesn't read up on one of the most used cards in the game" ?

If you solemn a Sangan, it doesnt get the search.

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-23, 10:48

Catastor's effect activates at the start of Damage Step, monster is flipped at substep 2 of Damage Step, that's why.

**LuzCeleste** 2011-12-23, 10:48

BlackwingRa wrote:I spot a mistake made by you, Sangan's effect is activated in grave, not on field.
And what's with the "I'm not taking shit from a dick head who solemn judgements sangan and doesn't read up on one of the most used cards in the game" ?

if you solemn sangan though, doesn't that negate the summon? Thus meaning it never hit the field? So his effect can't activate?

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-23, 10:49

What I meant to ask is which one said that a Sangan get SJ can still search, Kangtuji or his opponent?

**LuzCeleste** 2011-12-23, 10:51

From the looks of it, it was his opponent that wanted to still search and not kang.

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-23, 10:52

BlackwingRa wrote:What I meant to ask is which one said that a Sangan get SJ can still search, Kangtuji or his opponent?

I'm guessing the opponent had his Sangan solemned & wanted to get the search.

**kangtuji** 2011-12-23, 10:57

@bwra:
seem my opp got mad because I use solem judgement on his normal summon sangan
I have 2 dead draw since beginning, and my only monster was reborn tengu, and got swapped with his effect veiler

and finnaly I draw a monster, hanzo... attacking my own tengu, and starting to recovery, he want me not summoning tengu Neutral

About sangan... I was thinking it work like mystic tomato, which seems is active in grave, but actually it active on field. Think if you swap your own mystic tomato to opp field, and attacking it, kill it by battle.... I remember those kind of monster are active on field (I think it was on veiler / skill drain discussion... cann't remember, probably because the threas was locked)

@Luz:
Earlier, when he normal summon sangan. I solemn J. it
Just like reborn tengu, it never hit field,
If sangan or tengu wasn't send from field, it effect won't active

but the problem here isn't sangan... but my own reborn tengu, as I wrote on story :

Story
- Opp use creature swap... swapping my tengu & his effect veiler
- He attack, I use Book of moon, end turn
- I summon Hanzo, attacking my own tengu
- I summon another tengu from deck, and conversation happen, he think I don't get tengu's eff, because MY TENGU was killed on HIS SIDE

(which is I don't get it why I don't get my own tengu effect ? Its killed by battle, or may it just me get it wrong ?)

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-23, 11:00

kangtuji wrote:About sangan... I was thinking it work like mystic tomato, which seems is active in grave, but actually it active on field. Think if you swap your own mystic tomato to opp field, and attacking it, kill it by battle.... I remember those kind of monster are active on field (I think it was on veiler / skill drain discussion... cann't remember, probably because the threas was locked)

Monsters like Mystic Tomato (Giant Rat & the rest of the elemental searchers) & Sangan activate in the grave. So if you swap them & attack them you get their effs since they go to your graveyard.

Veiler / Skill Drain can't stop them since they only negate effects that activate on the field.

kangtuji wrote:but the problem here isn't sangan... but my own reborn tengu, as I wrote on story :

Story
- Opp use creature swap... swapping my tengu & his effect veiler
- He attack, I use Book of moon, end turn
- I summon Hanzo, attacking my own tengu
- I summon another tengu from deck, and conversation happen, he think I don't get tengu's eff, because MY TENGU was killed on HIS SIDE

(which is I don't get it why I don't get my own tengu effect ? Its killed by battle, or may it just me get it wrong ?)

You get to summon another Tengu.

Tengu's eff activate when it leaves the field & since it's your monster it will go to your grave/RFG/hand.

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-23, 11:01

No matter on which side, Tengu WILL activate the effect, and the OWNER of Tengu will gets the effect.
And Sangan activates in grave, if it's effect activates on field, there will be pointless to use Tour Guide to call out Sangan.
And remember, there's no such effect that activates at one place, resolves at other places.

**kangtuji** 2011-12-23, 11:10

Yes,
That what I am telling to my opp whole time, tengu eff still active regardless which side.

But then again, why is my opp call me idiot & dick head if I was right ?
My opp even use sangan as example, but he said I don't get the effect.

I knew I was right !
I need a reasoning why I wasn't incorrect

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-23, 11:16

Monster's effects that activate in grave can never be negated by Veiler, the Elemental searchers such as Mystic Tomato has its effect activates in grave, so Veiler cannot touch them.

**kangtuji** 2011-12-23, 11:22

Wrong,
veiler doesn't care where the effect active, it will negate them once it got veilered, even they move to graveyard

Some more common example would be Stardust got veilered cann't reborn itself at end phase But since this is a tengu thread, let make example if a Reborn Tengu got effect veilered, and leaves field, it will negated !

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-23, 11:22

kangtuji wrote:Veiler WILL negate them searchers if it happens (but mostly rarely happen since you only can veiler at opp M1 / M2 turn, unless he doing suicide with that veilered monster)[/list]

No, Veiler only negates effects that activate on the field.

**raidou** 2011-12-23, 11:42

So, why this topic Void? Simple. A lot of players don't understand the substeps of an attack and think attacking this card face-down stops the effect. For a reason I cannot understand, players think this card doesn't flip when attacked.

i got one who used DD survivor as a reference of why tengu didnt get effect

i know tengu gets effect when attacked while fd but cant understand why DD survivor wont get it !

is this ruling real?

If "Macro Cosmos" is active on the field and a face-down "D.D. Survivor" on your side of the field is destroyed battle, its effect will not activate. "D.D. Survivor" needs to be face-up when it is selected as an attack target in order for its effect to activate

**dest** 2011-12-23, 12:57

that is bkss, there is no reason why it shouldn't activate. But it doesn't, so...

**Key** 2011-12-23, 16:15

No it's not
The "Face-Up" clause requires the monster to be face-up before damage step in order to be considered "Face-up"

Oh, and unsticky'd from the request of TamB

**Magicknight94** 2011-12-23, 18:31

If a card specific say "face-up" and it is attacked while face-down, it won't get its effect.

If a card needed face-up by its ruling, it will work.

**kangtuji** 2011-12-23, 18:33

Bleh... I cann't believe it
nobody still pointing that veiler negate effect monsters regardless where they are after it being negated by veiler

Let me said again, effect veiler WILL negate Mystic tomato, Stardust Dragon, Reborn Tengu, D.D. Survivor even they're gone in graveyard or RFG pile.

Effect Veiler doesn't work like Skill Drain

**Key** 2011-12-23, 18:41

Veiler only negate cards that activate on the field

**{EX} TheVoid** 2011-12-23, 18:42

Magicknight94 wrote:If a card specific say "face-up" and it is attacked while face-down, it won't get its effect.

If a card needed face-up by its ruling, it will work.

Did you not read this topic at all?

EDIT:

Nevermind I misunderstood what you said.

**Magicknight94** 2011-12-23, 18:45

kangtuji wrote:Bleh... I cann't believe it
nobody still pointing that veiler negate effect monsters regardless where they are after it being negated by veiler

Let me said again, effect veiler WILL negate Mystic tomato, Stardust Dragon, Reborn Tengu, D.D. Survivor even they're gone in graveyard or RFG pile.

Effect Veiler doesn't work like Skill Drain

Seriously, you are incorrect.

Veiler can only negate effect that active on the field. It will negate Stardust Dragon. But not Mystic Tomato, Tengu, Survivor.

**kyubey** 2011-12-24, 03:44

Bleh... I cann't believe it
nobody still pointing that veiler negate effect monsters regardless where they are after it being negated by veiler

Let me said again, effect veiler WILL negate Mystic tomato, Stardust Dragon, Reborn Tengu, D.D. Survivor even they're gone in graveyard or RFG pile.

Effect Veiler doesn't work like Skill Drain

if my memory didn't lied to me:
1. effect veiler won't negate effect that resolve in hand / grave / banish
2. effect veiler can't negate cost (ex: thunder king, stardust dragon, etc)
3. mystic tomato, stardust, mystic tomato, tengu resolve in grave
// tengu, dd survivor resolve in banish zone
// tengu also works if you compulsory evacuation device it
4. veiler is a 1 turn(until ep) skill drain for 1 monster

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-24, 04:10

kangtuji wrote:Bleh... I cann't believe it
nobody still pointing that veiler negate effect monsters regardless where they are after it being negated by veiler

Let me said again, effect veiler WILL negate Mystic tomato, Stardust Dragon, Reborn Tengu, D.D. Survivor even they're gone in graveyard or RFG pile.

Effect Veiler doesn't work like Skill Drain

Effect Veiler negates effects that ACTIVATE or APPLY on the field.

Skill Drain only negate the effect that RESOLVES on the field.

The reason Veiler can negate Stardust is because the latter's effect activate on the field (resolves on the grave), that's enough reason for Veiler to negate it.

Since Stardust Dragon resolves in the grave, Skill Drain can't negate it.

Sangan, Tengu, Mystic Tomato effects doesn't apply or activate on the field that's why neither of the 2 cards (Effect Veiler / Skill Drain) can negate them.
When on the field, these cards have no effects. They gain those effects when they're sent to the grave (Sangan, Mystic Tomato) or removed from the field (Tengu).

Hope that helps.

**Key** 2011-12-24, 04:14

kyubey wrote:if my memory didn't lied to me:
3. mystic tomato, stardust, mystic tomato, tengu resolve in grave
// tengu, dd survivor resolve in banish zone
// tengu also works if you compulsory evacuation device it

Memory lied to you
Effects that activates on the field will resolve on the field
Effects always resolve wherever they're activated, no exceptions
Tengu doesn't necessarily resolve in the banished zone

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-24, 04:22

Key wrote:Memory lied to you
Effects that activates on the field will resolve on the field
Effects always resolve wherever they're activated, no exceptions
Tengu doesn't necessarily resolve in the banished zone

Stardust activates on the field & resolves on the grave.

**Key** 2011-12-24, 04:32

Did you read the next line?

**MrChillmatic** 2011-12-24, 04:45

Key wrote:Did you read the next line?

Just looked up, you're right, my bad.

The reason Skill Drain can't negate Stardust is because he isn't on the field when it's effect resolves.

**{EX} TheVoid** 2011-12-24, 04:52

Key wrote:
kyubey wrote:if my memory didn't lied to me:
3. mystic tomato, stardust, mystic tomato, tengu resolve in grave
// tengu, dd survivor resolve in banish zone
// tengu also works if you compulsory evacuation device it
Memory lied to you
Effects that activates on the field will resolve on the field
Effects always resolve wherever they're activated, no exceptions
Tengu doesn't necessarily resolve in the banished zone

Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-24, 05:43

And somehow people keep ignoring my post.
I already said there's no such effect that activates at one place, resolves at other places.
And I already said that Veiler and cards that similar to it can only negate effects that activates on the field.

**dest** 2011-12-24, 10:52

Magicknight94 wrote:If a card specific say "face-up" and it is attacked while face-down, it won't get its effect.

If a card needed face-up by its ruling, it will work.

I don't think so... or do you have other examples? Most things I found just need to be attacked while face-up (of course they don't meet the requirements then), but hardly anything states that it needs to be send to the grave/banished while face-up.
The only example I found so far is d.d. Telepon, it totally contradicts that ruling:

rulings_Telepon wrote:If a face-down "Telepon D.D." is attacked, flipped by battle, destroyed by that battle, and banished, then you can activate the effect which banishes a Psychic-Type monster from your Deck.

text_Telepon wrote:If this face-up card you control is banished:[...]

And Key, why should "once per turn" have anything to do with that...?

And of course Veiler can't negate effects which activate in the grave. Else Tour Guide/Sangan would never cause Sangan to trigger successfully.

**Key** 2011-12-24, 17:40

dest wrote:And Key, why should "once per turn" have anything to do with that...?

I meant, the face-up clause of course ...

And I don't know why Telepon D.D. has that ruling

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-12-24, 17:58

TheVoid wrote:
Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

Someone reminds me while this guy has yellow name?

**BlackwingRa** 2011-12-24, 19:52

He's a Key! Lol

**Miror B.** 2011-12-24, 19:56

TheVoid wrote:
Key wrote:
kyubey wrote:if my memory didn't lied to me:
3. mystic tomato, stardust, mystic tomato, tengu resolve in grave
// tengu, dd survivor resolve in banish zone
// tengu also works if you compulsory evacuation device it
Memory lied to you
Effects that activates on the field will resolve on the field
Effects always resolve wherever they're activated, no exceptions
Tengu doesn't necessarily resolve in the banished zone
Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

Except Skill Drain says "face-up monsters"

Tell me, where is Exiled Force when it's effect resolves? Oright, in the Graveyard. So it's no longer a "face-up monster" and as such does not fit Skill Drain's criteria.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-12-24, 21:44

Badass_Bunny wrote:
TheVoid wrote:
Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

Someone reminds me while this guy has yellow name?

I could say the same about you, but I wont since the drama between us isnt needed.

Show the guy some respect since he can at least admit to being wrong.

**Badass_Bunny** 2011-12-24, 21:53

Tsunayoshi wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:
TheVoid wrote:
Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

Someone reminds me while this guy has yellow name?

I could say the same about you, but I wont since the drama between us isnt needed.

Show the guy some respect since he can at least admit to being wrong.

Again you're talking about things you aren't able to understand.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-12-24, 21:58

Badass_Bunny wrote:
Tsunayoshi wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:
TheVoid wrote:
Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

Someone reminds me while this guy has yellow name?

I could say the same about you, but I wont since the drama between us isnt needed.

Show the guy some respect since he can at least admit to being wrong.

Again you're talking about things you aren't able to understand.

So I did. Unfortunately, it doesnt really change what I said about you not admitting to being wrong

**Potus-Mat** 2011-12-24, 22:05

O, yay, another chore...
Bunny, leave Void and Tsunayoshi alone. You can be like that all you desire in the staff section, but at least act tolerable when you are out here.
Tsunayoshi, Void can protect himself. If you keep trying to defend people like this, you are going to get hit by a banhammer or two.
Void, bring me a Diet Coke.
Anyway, back to Tengu...

**Adept VantageSP** 2011-12-24, 22:26

Spoiler:

Seriously guys, stop fighting and such. Sarcasm and jokes can be hard to understand or get on the Internet.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-12-24, 22:41

Potus-Mat wrote:O, yay, another chore...
Bunny, leave Void and Tsunayoshi alone. You can be like that all you desire in the staff section, but at least act tolerable when you are out here.
Tsunayoshi, Void can protect himself. If you keep trying to defend people like this, you are going to get hit by a banhammer or two.
Void, bring me a Diet Coke.
Anyway, back to Tengu...

Been hit with two already. Pretty sure they are the core in the drama between me and Bunny.

Either way, I already admitted to my little gaff in this thread. Should stop assuming some words that look like typos are typos.

**{EX} TheVoid** 2011-12-25, 06:36

Badass_Bunny wrote:
TheVoid wrote:
Key your post is confusing new players. The way your post is written, it is an easy misconception to assume that since it activates on the field and the effect resolves where it is activated, Skill Drain negates Exiled Force.

Someone reminds me while this guy has yellow name?

You misunderstood what I was saying. Im not saying Skill Drain negates Exiled Force, I am saying a new player, reading Key's post, might begin to think this.

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