Shooting Quasar Dragon vs. Junk Archer/Interdimensional Matter Transporter

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-11, 01:25

I hate how Shooting Quasar Dragon doesn't really have any rulings on Wikia yet and it's hard to look any up.

However, Interdimensional Matter Transporter says this, "If a Level 6 or higher monster is flipped face-down and then Flip Summoned, or if a Level 6 or higher monster is banished temporarily by an effect like "Interdimensional Matter Transporter", then the monster is still considered to have been Special Summoned."

Since Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Junk Archer both "return" the monster to the field, instead of Special Summoning the monster, would Shooting Quasar Dragon retain its effects to attack multiple times, negate a card once per turn, and summon Shooting Star Dragon when it leaves the field?

**Eliwood** 2012-01-11, 01:31

I think that Quasar returns to the field as "return" =/= special summon, and Shooting Star is also summoned since Quasar left the field... leaving you with both quasar and shooting star.

Don't really know... I tried looking this up before and got nothing.

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-11, 01:34

Yeah. The summoning Shooting Star effect would be useless after it already summons one. But the other 2 effects, I'm wondering if they would still work. If Junk Archer said to Special Summon the monster back, then I would understand it. But I've always thought that return was different than Special Summon and shouldn't affect a monster being summoned properly.

I dunno. But this makes me want to start the Rulings page on Wikia so at least there is something. Hard to find rulings for this card anywhere.

Edit: Just read this on the Wikia page for "Return." It states, "When a monster is returned to the field, it is not considered to be a Summon of any kind, so cards which respond to a Summon cannot be used and cards which prevent Summons will not affect a return."

So I imagine that returning Shooting Quasar Dragon to the field with Junk Archer's effect would not affect its summoning and it would retain its effects. Correct me if I'm wrong.

**Magicknight94** 2012-01-11, 04:07

You will gain both Shooting, but Quasar cannot muti-attack anymore.

**S.S.A.** 2012-01-11, 05:05

the way i see it quasar cant multi attack because the card wouldnt remember how many non tuners it used, but it could still negate/summon

**Tuvillo** 2012-01-11, 05:35

It's similar to other known rulings.

For example, Naturia Bamboo Shoot loses its effect when it gets temporarily banished.

**plsgiveme500k** 2012-01-11, 06:07

If a monster is banished by junk archer/interdimensional matter transporter, and it is return at end phase, monster returned to field means the monster's banishing status is gone, and return the monster to field doesn't treat the monster is summoned to field, and the monster is still remember how it was summoned.

Sorry if any part of my explanation is wrong.

**Badass_Bunny** 2012-01-11, 06:49

If a Level 6 or higher monster is flipped face-down and then Flip Summoned, or if a Level 6 or higher monster is banished temporarily by an effect like "Interdimensional Matter Transporter", then the monster is still considered to have been Special Summoned. Thus, it will be affected by "Grave of the Super Ancient Organism", so it can neither activate its effects nor attack.

Now you're reading this text wrong. That text states that simply a Special Summoned Monster is considered to have been special summoned even if it was flipped face down and Flip Summoned. Basically saying that if you Flip Summon Quasar than Quasar is still considered to have been special summoned and would be destroyed by something like Fossil Dyna.

However following Rulings For Naturia Bambooshot, you can deduct that Quasar will only be able to attack once.

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-11, 09:56

Okay everyone. Thanks for the replies. This can be marked as solved and locked. :]

**Miror B.** 2012-01-11, 12:26

Correction Bunny: Quasar will NOT be able to attack. That is because of it's effect:

This card's maximum number of attacks per turn equals the number of non-Tuner monsters used as its Synchro Material.

Since Quasar has forgotten what was used to summon it because it was removed from the field and placed back, the number of non-Tuners used is now 0. Thus Quasar's maximum number of attacks is 0.

This does not apply to flipping face-down since that doesn't erase it's memory of how it was summoned.

**Tuvillo** 2012-01-11, 12:39

Doesn't it get to attack once, simply because the effect itself is void?

Also, I remember the main ruling now.

Interdimensional Matter Transporter vs De-Synchro.

**Miror B.** 2012-01-11, 13:07

Tuvillo wrote:Doesn't it get to attack once, simply because the effect itself is void?

Also, I remember the main ruling now.

Interdimensional Matter Transporter vs De-Synchro.

No, it does not get void. That's like saying Shooting Star Dragon can attack once if it reveals no tuners by it's effect "simply because the effect itself is void".

**Joenen** 2012-01-11, 23:59

The effect cannot be applied since it "doesn't remember" how much materials were used to summon it.

you will get to attack once with shooting quasar when its returned to the field with matter transpaorter / archer.

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-12, 00:06

But it says, "The maximum number of attacks etc"

If it doesn't remember the materials used, then how could it have any number attacks?

**Joenen** 2012-01-12, 00:08

No, if it doesn't remember what materials it used (as we are extrapolating), then the effect cannot be applied.

so it defaults to the normal rule of one attack.

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-12, 00:10

Do you have anything backing this up? Normally I wouldn't make any deal about it but it's a card I'm trying out and I need to know as many rulings as possible.

I still think the difference between Return & Special Summon makes enough difference here. Returning a monster doesn't re-summon it. It's not a summon in any way, in fact. So I don't understand what could change that would make Shooting Quasar Dragon "forget" how many materials were used.

**Miror B.** 2012-01-12, 00:13

Joenen wrote:No, if it doesn't remember what materials it used (as we are extrapolating), then the effect cannot be applied.

so it defaults to the normal rule of one attack.

Why wouldn't it be applied? As far as it's concerned 0 Non-Tuners were used for the synchro summon. The effect does not say "Unless this card used 0 Non-Tuners, in which case it has 1 attack". It says "equal to the number of Non-Tuners used for the Synchro Summon of this card."

0 Non-Tuners were used.

**Eliwood** 2012-01-12, 00:29

[S]tarstrike wrote:Do you have anything backing this up? Normally I wouldn't make any deal about it but it's a card I'm trying out and I need to know as many rulings as possible.

I still think the difference between Return & Special Summon makes enough difference here. Returning a monster doesn't re-summon it. It's not a summon in any way, in fact. So I don't understand what could change that would make Shooting Quasar Dragon "forget" how many materials were used.

...
Maybe because it just left the field therefore losing it's identity...

Anyway.. this thread just opened a whole lot of new combos for me...
Time to exploit extremely high attack beatsticks with terrible effects...

**plsgiveme500k** 2012-01-12, 00:29

Miror B. wrote:
Joenen wrote:No, if it doesn't remember what materials it used (as we are extrapolating), then the effect cannot be applied.

so it defaults to the normal rule of one attack.
Why wouldn't it be applied? As far as it's concerned 0 Non-Tuners were used for the synchro summon. The effect does not say "Unless this card used 0 Non-Tuners, in which case it has 1 attack". It says "equal to the number of Non-Tuners used for the Synchro Summon of this card."

0 Non-Tuners were used.

That's why Quasar is nomi monster... -.-

**Miror B.** 2012-01-12, 00:39

plsgiveme500k wrote:
Miror B. wrote:
Joenen wrote:No, if it doesn't remember what materials it used (as we are extrapolating), then the effect cannot be applied.

so it defaults to the normal rule of one attack.
Why wouldn't it be applied? As far as it's concerned 0 Non-Tuners were used for the synchro summon. The effect does not say "Unless this card used 0 Non-Tuners, in which case it has 1 attack". It says "equal to the number of Non-Tuners used for the Synchro Summon of this card."

0 Non-Tuners were used.

That's why Quasar is nomi monster... -.-

...what does that even have to do with how many attacks Quasar has if Interdimensional Matter Transporter is used on it?

**plsgiveme500k** 2012-01-12, 00:41

Miror B. wrote:
plsgiveme500k wrote:
Miror B. wrote:
Joenen wrote:No, if it doesn't remember what materials it used (as we are extrapolating), then the effect cannot be applied.

so it defaults to the normal rule of one attack.
Why wouldn't it be applied? As far as it's concerned 0 Non-Tuners were used for the synchro summon. The effect does not say "Unless this card used 0 Non-Tuners, in which case it has 1 attack". It says "equal to the number of Non-Tuners used for the Synchro Summon of this card."

0 Non-Tuners were used.

That's why Quasar is nomi monster... -.-

...what does that even have to do with how many attacks Quasar has if Interdimensional Matter Transporter is used on it?

Means that if Quasar is not a nomi monster, and someone ss it from grave, it will cause a lot of confusion like this...

**Joenen** 2012-01-12, 00:57

Miror B. wrote:
Joenen wrote:No, if it doesn't remember what materials it used (as we are extrapolating), then the effect cannot be applied.

so it defaults to the normal rule of one attack.
Why wouldn't it be applied? As far as it's concerned 0 Non-Tuners were used for the synchro summon. The effect does not say "Unless this card used 0 Non-Tuners, in which case it has 1 attack". It says "equal to the number of Non-Tuners used for the Synchro Summon of this card."

0 Non-Tuners were used.

A continuous effect can't apply if it doesn't know how to apply :/

Just because it "forgot" doesn't mean it resets to zero. it just forgot. If you want an explicit answer, I'd ask konami, because a "BKSS" ruling could change this.

But in this case, "forgetting" does not mean defaulting to "zero materials were used".

I mean, you can't synchro summon a monster with zero materials. You must have used atleast 3 materials to have summoned quasar, atleast two of which were non tuner. The problem is quasar forgot "how many" materials were used. The number isn't infinity, but the number cannot be zero.

so it defaults to one.

**Badass_Bunny** 2012-01-12, 01:52

Joenen is correct Mirror, after Being Flip Summoned or returned from RFG it will be able to attack once.

**Tuvillo** 2012-01-13, 04:57

Even if it's flipped down?

I know De-Synchro works on Synchros that have been booked...

Anyway, thanks for the back up, Joenen and Bunny.

**storyteller** 2012-01-13, 21:24

It's an OCG card. IT only makes sense to check on the Japanese wiki.
Even though the Wikia is short on rulings on OCG cards, the Japanese wiki has extensive rulings, etc. even on TCG exclusives. Very interesting.

Ｑ：このカードが裏側表示になりその後表側表示になった場合、複数回攻撃できますか？
　　できないならば、攻撃自体はできますか？
Ａ：いいえ、複数回攻撃する事はできません。
　　攻撃自体は通常通り１回できます。(11/03/25)

Q: When this card is flipped face-down and then flipped face-up again, can it attack multiple times? If not, can it attack at all?
A: No, it cannot attack multiple times. Yes, it can attack once as normal.

Didn't see a ruling on Interdimensional Matter Transporter, but I assume what applies one place applies in all similar situations.

**raidou** 2012-01-15, 00:15

same should happen if it gets its effect negated (veiler/chalice)

it works with bamboo too use veiler on it and it will 'forget' it was summoned by releasing a naturia

**storyteller** 2012-01-15, 00:29

raidou wrote:it works with bamboo too use veiler on it and it will 'forget' it was summoned by releasing a naturia

not true.

From Japanese wiki page for Bamboo Shoot
Ｑ：《エフェクト・ヴェーラー》や《スキルドレイン》の効果によって、このカードの効果が無効になりました。
　　この場合、これらの効果が適用されなくなったとき、再び効果が適用されるようになりますか？
Ａ：その場合このカードの効果は再び適用されます。(11/04/20)

Q: This card's effect has been negated by the effect of "Effect Veiler" or "Skill Drain", etc. When these effects no longer apply, will this card's effect be applied again?
A: Yes, in that case, this card's effect will apply again.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-15, 05:36

Please don't ever use Bamboo as an example. Ever.

**raidou** 2012-01-15, 12:29

why are you saying to not use bamboo as a ruling example

do you mean its a BKSS (i doubt it)and all its rulings apply only to bamboo?

i thought it would apply to invicil too!

if you say bamboo rulings only apply to that card gives us a proof to be sure

did that rule change ? thats wasnt how it was ruled before i remember this happening ingame many times and people ( and mods ) said it wont apply again

does this mean tyrant neptune will get to keep the effect of the monsters i released if veilered ?
im editing because i just found out T neptune has new rulings too

i played this card so i know this one wasnt there before

After "The Tyrant Neptune" gains the name and effects of a monster, if "Skill Drain" is activated, then "The Tyrant Neptune" keeps its changed name. If "The Tyrant Neptune" gained a Continuous Effect, then "Skill Drain" negates that effect. If "The Tyrant Neptune" gained an Ignition, Trigger, or Quick Effect, then the effect can be activated, but "Skill Drain" will negate the effect when it resolves.[8]

Please don't ever use Bamboo as an example. Ever.

so you were wrong about bamboo rulings not applying to other cards this one shows bamboo ruling on effect negated by cards applies to other cards too !

so you CAN use bamboo as an example for

invicil and tyrant neptune and there must be more !

seems both learned new rulings today! Smile

**Miror B.** 2012-01-15, 12:37

I don't know why bambooshoot can't be used as an example. It works perfectly for the situation.

Neptune's effect stays with it as well. It can even activate said effect while Veilered if it wants.

And most attack boosts are received at summon, and iirc Tyrant Neptune is no exception. Since it isn't continuously modifying it's attack it'll go to 0.

Anyway, I do know Veiler/Skill Drain/Chalice do not make the monster forget how they were summoned.

**raidou** 2012-01-15, 12:39

wow you posted while i was editing to add neptune ruling

**poemi** 2012-01-15, 14:39

I kinda agree not to use bamboo as reference as it has conflicted ruling in both CG's for now.

Neptune copying effect; as supposed to be, ruled just like PoC (also prisma in copying name), after the condition placed, veiler will do nothing except negating the current copied effect. It is kinda unrelated to remembering how a monster was summoned though.

veiler-ing quasar won't do the same as flipping it face-down or temporary banishing.

**Miror B.** 2012-01-15, 14:49

poemi wrote:I kinda agree not to use bamboo as reference as it has conflicted ruling in both CG's for now.

Name them because I have no clue what they are.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-15, 16:14

First of all:

• Effect Veiler will negate Naturia Bamboo Shoot the turn it is used, but Naturia Bamboo Shoot will have the effect again when Effect Veiler wears off.
• If Effect Veiler is used on The Tyrant Neptune it will have 0 ATK and will not get the ATK back when Effect Veiler wears off.
• The Tyrant Neptune will keep its name and effect the turn Effect Veiler is used, similar to Phantom of Chaos.
• Do not compare Naturia Bamboo Shoot to other cards.
• Cards do forget how they were Summoned, much like Beast King Barbaros.

Second of all:

raidou wrote:so you were wrong about bamboo rulings not applying to other cards this one shows bamboo ruling on effect negated by cards applies to other cards too !

so you CAN use bamboo as an example for

invicil and tyrant neptune and there must be more !

seems both learned new rulings today!

I was not wrong, you were. I'd refute the rest of that comment with a little hate, but I'm trying very hard to a bigger person right now (and I'm a pretty small guy already).

**raidou** 2012-01-15, 17:02

so you mean invicil will forget it released a fairy or a fiend?
where did you get that ruling

you ve been saying bamboo ruling dont apply to any cards

are you sure where did you read invicil wont have the same ruling

This card cannot be Special Summoned. If you Tribute Summon this card by Tributing 1 of the following monsters, this card gets the appropriate effect:
● LIGHT Fairy-Type monster: Negate the effects of all Spell Cards.
● DARK Fiend-Type monster: Negate the effects of all Trap Cards.

what im trying to do is to get you to post a better explanation than just 'you cant'

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-15, 17:30

raidou wrote:so you mean invicil will forget it released a fairy or a fiend?
where did you get that ruling

you ve been saying bamboo ruling dont apply to any cards

are you sure where did you read invicil wont have the same ruling

This card cannot be Special Summoned. If you Tribute Summon this card by Tributing 1 of the following monsters, this card gets the appropriate effect:
● LIGHT Fairy-Type monster: Negate the effects of all Spell Cards.
● DARK Fiend-Type monster: Negate the effects of all Trap Cards.

what im trying to do is to get you to post a better explanation than just 'you cant'

Sky Scourge Invicil should not reapply its effect after Effect Veiler wears off because it should be like similar cards (Beast King Barbaros and such). If you want to know why Naturia Bamboo Shoot behaves so strangely, email Konami about it. That's exactly why you shouldn't use it as an example.

**storyteller** 2012-01-15, 18:05

It should reapply its effects.

While the Japanese Wikia does not give the ruling specifics, it refers to Naturia Bambooshoot in the Related Cards section.

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-15, 20:30

Why are you all talking about all this other stuff? This was supposed to be for Shooting Quasar...

**Key** 2012-01-15, 21:04

Asherpotter wrote:• Cards do forget how they were Summoned, much like Beast King Barbaros.

Disappointing, there's no such thing

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-15, 22:08

Key wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:• Cards do forget how they were Summoned, much like Beast King Barbaros.
Disappointing, there's no such thing

Even Ness says there is: http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=19045942&postcount=5

It's all semantics anyway (It doesn't reapply the effect because it doesn't remember the conditions met or because the trigger for the effect isn't there anymore or however you want to put it).

I'm not going to derail the thread anymore with this, though. My apologies.

**Key** 2012-01-15, 22:21

Asherpotter wrote:Even Ness says there is: http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=19045942&postcount=5

It's all semantics anyway (It doesn't reapply the effect because it doesn't remember the conditions met or because the trigger for the effect isn't there anymore or however you want to put it).

I'm not going to derail the thread anymore with this, though. My apologies.

Deus Ex Machina > Ness
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=19238234&postcount=10

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-15, 22:47

Key wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:Even Ness says there is: http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=19045942&postcount=5

It's all semantics anyway (It doesn't reapply the effect because it doesn't remember the conditions met or because the trigger for the effect isn't there anymore or however you want to put it).

I'm not going to derail the thread anymore with this, though. My apologies.
Deus Ex Machina > Ness
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=19238234&postcount=10

Turns on is better than forgets for what arbitrary reason?

Also, Ness is better than this?

http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Vennom_Deity_Questions... wrote:Actually, "Neo-Spacian Grand Mole" should resolve as much as possible, and just return itself to your hand. "Vennominaga" will stay on the field. It's basically the same as "Neo-Spacian Grand Mole" vs "Ally of Justice Catastor". --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 20:40, November 6, 2010 (UTC)

Ness just said the part about it applying to Bamboo before the ruling spread; that doesn't mean he's wrong about Fusilier.

I guess I lied when I said I was done derailing.

**Key** 2012-01-15, 23:26

Because the GB scenario proofs that it doesn't forget its summon
If Gladiator Beast are summoned by Test Tiger and gets negated by Veiler, next turn they will still have their effect (Most of them)

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-15, 23:39

Except that Gladiator Beast Laquari doesn't. Sheesh, Key if you're this adamant about "forgetting" I'll just say "turns on" (which sounds retarded btw).

**T3RCX** 2012-01-16, 00:45

I'm not sure I even buy the idea of a monster having to remember how it was summoned to begin with. I would classify it more as a property of the gamestate that every monster on the field must have been summoned (or set), and the method of summoning is always classifiable as normal, tribute, synchro, fusion, Xyz, special, etc... This is how cards like Infestation Wave and Faustian Bargain are able to work; they inherently "know" how a monster was summoned because it is a property of the gamestate itself.

Now some continuous monster effects require specific conditions to be met before they are able to apply (think "trigger" version of continuous effects), so in cases where an effect is negated or no longer applies (facedown, for example), then the effect will not reapply if the conditions for application are not met at that time.

**Key** 2012-01-16, 00:57

Asherpotter wrote:Except that Gladiator Beast Laquari doesn't. Sheesh, Key if you're this adamant about "forgetting" I'll just say "turns on" (which sounds retarded btw).

Laquari has the same reasoning as Barbaros
I was hoping you would be a little more knowledgeable and relate them, apparently I'm wrong.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-16, 02:30

Key wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:Except that Gladiator Beast Laquari doesn't. Sheesh, Key if you're this adamant about "forgetting" I'll just say "turns on" (which sounds retarded btw).
Laquari has the same reasoning as Barbaros
I was hoping you would be a little more knowledgeable and relate them, apparently I'm wrong.

I was relating them. I was saying that Laquari "forgets" similar to Barbaros. Of course now I'm not saying "forgets" anymore; I'm saying "doesn't reapply."

**Miror B.** 2012-01-16, 02:35

Asherpotter wrote:
Key wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:Except that Gladiator Beast Laquari doesn't. Sheesh, Key if you're this adamant about "forgetting" I'll just say "turns on" (which sounds retarded btw).
Laquari has the same reasoning as Barbaros
I was hoping you would be a little more knowledgeable and relate them, apparently I'm wrong.
I was relating them. I was saying that Laquari "forgets" similar to Barbaros. Of course now I'm not saying "forgets" anymore; I'm saying "doesn't reapply."

It doesn't forget.
The attack boost is applied at summon. Like The Tyrant Neptune.
Since it's effect does not continuously modify the attack, if it gets negated then the attack does not remodify itself.
Bambooshoot can be compared to other cards but it does not act weirdly.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-16, 02:57

Miror B. wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
Key wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:Except that Gladiator Beast Laquari doesn't. Sheesh, Key if you're this adamant about "forgetting" I'll just say "turns on" (which sounds retarded btw).
Laquari has the same reasoning as Barbaros
I was hoping you would be a little more knowledgeable and relate them, apparently I'm wrong.
I was relating them. I was saying that Laquari "forgets" similar to Barbaros. Of course now I'm not saying "forgets" anymore; I'm saying "doesn't reapply."
It doesn't forget.
The attack boost is applied at summon. Like The Tyrant Neptune.
Since it's effect does not continuously modify the attack, if it gets negated then the attack does not remodify itself.
Bambooshoot can be compared to other cards but it does not act weirdly.

There is no official term to describe it. If you guys prefer not to use "forget" then fine, so be it. That was just always the way I knew people to describe it I guess. I don't think that is inherently wrong then I don't mind switching to "doesn't reapply" instead, but the end result is the same. Arguing over minutia at this level seems a bit ridiculous honestly, considering we're all in agreement over how the card works.

**Key** 2012-01-16, 03:03

Like I've said, if you use the term "Forget", it means "Forget" thus GB shouldn't have its effect, but it does.

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