Re: Admin Test Discussion

**Sylveraine** 2012-01-23, 15:06

Asherpotter is right

it is already handling several things the former tests didn't, like readin complicated situations, but like vantage just pointed out, ppl speak in pretty basic speech. mostly english, sometimes not even that. and in my experience as admin, I must also say, that from all those rulings, most never popped up. sure, it's good to know them, but perhaps it would be better to adjust the test to the current situation on decks, and cards that are oftenly used. Like Neonian once told me, if you always stay up to date, and you keep links like wikia at hand, you'll do a good job

**S.S.A.** 2012-01-23, 15:06

the ideal format would probably be some simple multiple choice questions(with one answer) to gauge a basic ruling proficiency, followed by 1-2 written questions involving what you would do in a specific senario ON DN, ie unruly member, cheating etc. if the applicant doesnt get over x score, then dont even read his/her written response, that would probably incorporate all of the things talked about here decently well

**Adept VantageSP** 2012-01-23, 15:10

I was just disappointed it didn't tell me which pony I was at the end. :c

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-23, 15:11

S.S.A. wrote:the ideal format would probably be some simple multiple choice questions(with one answer) to gauge a basic ruling proficiency, followed by 1-2 written questions involving what you would do in a specific senario ON DN, ie unruly member, cheating etc. if the applicant doesnt get over x score, then dont even read his/her written response, that would probably incorporate all of the things talked about here decently well

That can't be done, though. If that was the case maybe 100 tests would be marked a month, and even that is a hopeful amount.

**Zero2Hero** 2012-01-23, 15:11

Asherpotter wrote:
S.S.A. wrote:the ideal format would probably be some simple multiple choice questions(with one answer) to gauge a basic ruling proficiency, followed by 1-2 written questions involving what you would do in a specific senario ON DN, ie unruly member, cheating etc. if the applicant doesnt get over x score, then dont even read his/her written response, that would probably incorporate all of the things talked about here decently well
That can't be done, though. If that was the case maybe 100 tests would be marked a month, and even that is a hopeful amount.

NOT WORTHY!!!

**Red_Chaos** 2012-01-23, 15:13

The only problem with a written portian of a test is that DN has a huge community beside english speaking gamers. Possibliy gettting some words lost in transaltion. not to mention how accuretly could you score a written portion not only equaly but fairly for even application. that takes time and work, something that Dn staff testers might not have time to do

**S.S.A.** 2012-01-23, 15:15

Asherpotter wrote:
S.S.A. wrote:the ideal format would probably be some simple multiple choice questions(with one answer) to gauge a basic ruling proficiency, followed by 1-2 written questions involving what you would do in a specific senario ON DN, ie unruly member, cheating etc. if the applicant doesnt get over x score, then dont even read his/her written response, that would probably incorporate all of the things talked about here decently well
That can't be done, though. If that was the case maybe 100 tests would be marked a month, and even that is a hopeful amount.

then you add new admins slow *shrug* i dunno that was the best i got for right now, but a slow increase of admins wouldnt be the worst thing in the world, particularly if it means that the time was taken to make doubly sure they were the best fort he job

Red wrote:The only problem with a written portian of a test is that DN has a huge community beside english speaking gamers. Possibliy gettting some words lost in transaltion. not to mention how accuretly could you score a written portion not only equaly but fairly for even application. that takes time and work, something that Dn staff testers might not have time to do

unfortunately though, if a testee is unable to communicate properly in english, and there is no alternative method of screening foreign language speaking judges (which there probably should be) then their effectiveness as a mod in most cases would be severely diminished, and as before, fair enough on the time thign

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-23, 15:20

S.S.A. wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
S.S.A. wrote:the ideal format would probably be some simple multiple choice questions(with one answer) to gauge a basic ruling proficiency, followed by 1-2 written questions involving what you would do in a specific senario ON DN, ie unruly member, cheating etc. if the applicant doesnt get over x score, then dont even read his/her written response, that would probably incorporate all of the things talked about here decently well
That can't be done, though. If that was the case maybe 100 tests would be marked a month, and even that is a hopeful amount.

then you add new admins slow *shrug* i dunno that was the best i got for right now, but a slow increase of admins wouldnt be the worst thing in the world, particularly if it means that the time was taken to make doubly sure they were the best fort he job

Decreasing efficiency at this point isn't an option considering how many admins we need. Any admin who passes an exam like this is pretty much qualified. The problem lies wherein people who would be great admins but might be excluded due to this test.

**S.S.A.** 2012-01-23, 15:46

Asherpotter wrote:
S.S.A. wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
S.S.A. wrote:the ideal format would probably be some simple multiple choice questions(with one answer) to gauge a basic ruling proficiency, followed by 1-2 written questions involving what you would do in a specific senario ON DN, ie unruly member, cheating etc. if the applicant doesnt get over x score, then dont even read his/her written response, that would probably incorporate all of the things talked about here decently well
That can't be done, though. If that was the case maybe 100 tests would be marked a month, and even that is a hopeful amount.

then you add new admins slow *shrug* i dunno that was the best i got for right now, but a slow increase of admins wouldnt be the worst thing in the world, particularly if it means that the time was taken to make doubly sure they were the best fort he job
Decreasing efficiency at this point isn't an option considering how many admins we need. Any admin who passes an exam like this is pretty much qualified. The problem lies wherein people who would be great admins but might be excluded due to this test.

okay thats fair enough

**CCStormgust** 2012-01-23, 15:51

VantageSP wrote:The main reason why the test is disliked:

"Check all that apply:"

Take those out and you have a good test.

Well no.
There was some useless question. How is that gonna help on DN ? you recruit admins to assist during duel conflict or w/e

Please don't go into specifics about the test. Thank you.

**winged-kuriboh** 2012-01-23, 15:52

Can't say I agree that the test should be about one's skills in admin spot besides rules knowledge. An adminstrator is there to make sure that everything is going according to the rules isn't there? Well, there are 2 types of rules, 1st is the yu gi oh tcg rules (which are taken care by the rules exam, at least theoretically) and the other is the website/forum rules in general. Assuming that an admin is aware of the website rules (and even if he isn't about some, he can always check) when he sees an occasion where they are not followed, he or she intervenes (with the appropriate punishments or warnings).
It seems quite simple to me, no need for the examination to be about it, and even if it did, how exactly would that be done? And even if there was a way to be done, I think it should had been secondary after the game rules knowledge examination (for example something like a week given on the new admins to prove themselves which would include facing spammers and harassments too, or to organise a mini tournament etc and then decide who passes based on the results. But still that would be done AFTER someone has passed the game rule exam. And I bet it would take some long long time)
That's just my look on it...

**Twilight Sparkle** 2012-01-23, 15:53

I Like My Score....
I Could Have Did better.... But i Dont blame the Test itself...
Admins do need to deal with pepole like me who do not make the questions clear,

ima sorta happy with my 12 ~>~'

Just next time you guys might want to read over the questions one more time before making the test, As For me im going to go back to studing

@ CCStormgust
Questions like that were to make sure you could look up the Reasons Why the
effects would work or not work, without just Typing Blah Blah Blah Rulings

**Phraxure** 2012-01-23, 16:00

I'm sure by this the Admins now know that possibly they haven't come up with the best test. But c'mon... They didn't have to make this test in the first place and they could have chosen to have left it how it was meaning most players would have to wait anywhere from 5-20 mins for something that could've been solved in seconds. It's better they have this than nothing.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-23, 16:21

Phraxure wrote:I'm sure by this the Admins now know that possibly they haven't come up with the best test. But c'mon... They didn't have to make this test in the first place and they could have chosen to have left it how it was meaning most players would have to wait anywhere from 5-20 mins for something that could've been solved in seconds. It's better they have this than nothing.

Making a test isn't a simple matter, and this test has pretty much accomplished what the heads set out for. Even if it isn't the best test it's definitely helping. People shouldn't have to wait that long for an admin, and hopefully we'll get enough new people that they won't need to. Maybe at some point the admins will add different parts to the test or change what they're looking for in an admin, but for now it really is working.

In another note, please don't discuss test specifics here. For anyone looking to take the test I highly advise preparing yourself the best you can, because it is not one simple question after another, and you will need to have your wits about you to succeed. If you want to pass it hard enough, I'm sure you have the ability. This test doesn't just gauge how much you know, but rather how far you'll go to beat it.

**Phraxure** 2012-01-23, 16:58

Think you misunderstood me Asher. Razz

**DarwinDawkins** 2012-01-23, 17:01

I became an admin through the new test and I must say the test is quite difficult. I received a score of 18/20 and I am certain the couple of questions I missed were issues with the question wordings since I was present when another of my friends took the exam and I realized what my errors had been(of course I did not assist my friend with his exam).

Ultimately the head admins may decide the critera for becoming an admin and the exam really is great at assessing Ruling Comprehension in that all the questions are targeted at testing for a thorough understanding of particular game mechanics rather than for knowledge of a singular card's rulings. In this sense the DN admin test is far superior to Konami's exam.

The test is not particularly difficult as long as you take your time reading each scenario and all the cards involved, the few true errors in the test(these do exist) are mostly typographical ones and can be ignored if you recognize what mechanic you are being tested on. Just read carefully and you will pass the test or receive an above average score.

The only suggestion I would make for improving the test in addition to fixing the typing mistakes is that the time provided for completing the test be increased, an extra 10-20 min would ensure that users have ample time to access resources and make fewer errors due to reading the question incorrectly since reading comprehension is not what the exam is desinged to test.

There is a dearth of admins which the exam has no doubt addressed to some extent but I very often find myself with one or two others trying to go through a list of 20 calls. If the test remains the same then there should also be another way for good reliable admins to be recruited in addition to the exam

**Vonbolt** 2012-01-23, 17:44

Wow i think i was the only one being confused with the wording of the answers, but if actually people that speak English had that problem too I'm a little more relieved...
lol

But beside that i think the difficulty of the exam is a must(except in the ambiguous wording), because if the exam was more easy we would had a lot more admins but less "capable" to solve rulings question(that what i see generally are the most in the admin calls, pms etc.), i know that being good at rulings isn't "all" the qualities to be a good admin, but its very important.

But certainly its needed another method to hire new admins, as some people are good at rulings, others are good talking, searching, reading the card, etc. that its almost the same as be good at rulings...

Pd: Sorry for the badly English Razz

**Lovelace** 2012-01-23, 17:50

I bet this test was easy -_-. I would've got 20/20.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-23, 17:51

Phraxure wrote:Think you misunderstood me Asher.

Nah, I understood you meant it was better than nothing and they tried and whatnot; I was just trying to expound on it.

Think you misunderstood me. lol

**Saturn** 2012-01-23, 18:04

Lovelace wrote:I bet this test was easy -_-. I would've got 20/20.

Lol @ your ego.

**Lovelace** 2012-01-23, 18:34

Saturn wrote:
Lovelace wrote:I bet this test was easy -_-. I would've got 20/20.

Lol @ your ego.

Not my fault DN forums bought the very worse out of me.

**Key** 2012-01-23, 21:32

To me, this feels more like a complaining topic.
On the whole exam, there's only 1 question I see that I consider unfair to be questioning people. Rest are easy v_v
Especially with all the threads to help you with ruling

**Red_Chaos** 2012-01-23, 21:36

Key wrote:To me, this feels more like a complaining topic.
On the whole exam, there's only 1 question I see that I consider unfair to be questioning people. Rest are easy v_v
Especially with all the threads to help you with ruling

Then test me so next time i pass key Very Happy

**Adept VantageSP** 2012-01-23, 22:47

Honestly, the test just needed more Mia. She makes everything extra nice! Very Happy

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-23, 22:54

Hmm. I got an 8/20 too. I really think that the test could have been easier. I felt like I had just started playing this game when I saw that score and I've been playing for 10 years...

If it gets changed to be a little easier, I'd like to re-take it.

**Miror B.** 2012-01-23, 22:57

[S]tarstrike wrote:Hmm. I got an 8/20 too. I really think that the test could have been easier. I felt like I had just started playing this game when I saw that score and I've been playing for 10 years...

If it gets changed to be a little easier, I'd like to re-take it.

The test isn't designed to hold your hand throughout, it's designed to test your knowledge. Saying it could have been easier is obvious, but not for you to decide.

**[S]tarstrike** 2012-01-23, 22:58

No no. I'm not saying that. I'm sure I did a lot better on the first admin test where you had to post in the thread that you had taken the test.

I don't want it to be so easy that anyone can do it. Don't get me wrong.

**CheyMcFly** 2012-01-23, 23:05

DarkRiku wrote:
VantageSP wrote:The main reason why the test is disliked:

"Check all that apply:"

Take those out and you have a good test.

I agree. A question within a question is rather confusing when trying to find the answer.

it's like inception but in a test

**Adept VantageSP** 2012-01-23, 23:08

But with no entertainment value.

**Badass_Bunny** 2012-01-23, 23:10

Give me a test that is straight forward(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game) and see how we do compared to this one. I think Ash put it nice it was More tricky than straight forward which it should have never been.

**Miror B.** 2012-01-24, 00:11

Badass_Bunny wrote:(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game)

I've seen people set up the most ridiculous chain involving 2 LaDDs, 2 Doomcals, Pole Position and about 3 other cards and call an admin just to see if they can figure it out.

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-24, 00:30

Miror B. wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game)

I've seen people set up the most ridiculous chain involving 2 LaDDs, 2 Doomcals, Pole Position and about 3 other cards and call an admin just to see if they can figure it out.

**Lovelace** 2012-01-24, 00:37

I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take test

**Miror B.** 2012-01-24, 00:39

Asherpotter wrote:
Miror B. wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game)

I've seen people set up the most ridiculous chain involving 2 LaDDs, 2 Doomcals, Pole Position and about 3 other cards and call an admin just to see if they can figure it out.

Yea that's the one

Sad thing is I know those 2 guys X3

**Chief** 2012-01-24, 00:43

Wait there's a thread discussing about how this exam is too hard.....

**CheyMcFly** 2012-01-24, 01:17

Chief wrote:Wait there's a thread discussing about how this exam is too hard.....

I think it was the test in general, but the general opinion that I have noticed is that it is too hard. But you guys want it to be hard. Idk. I haven't taken it yet
not done studying :3

**Twilight Sparkle** 2012-01-24, 01:23

Miror B. wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
Miror B. wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game)

I've seen people set up the most ridiculous chain involving 2 LaDDs, 2 Doomcals, Pole Position and about 3 other cards and call an admin just to see if they can figure it out.

Yea that's the one

Sad thing is I know those 2 guys X3

I feel bad for the guy you told to do admins job whlie you guys did that puzzle

**DarkRiku** 2012-01-24, 01:26

Asherpotter wrote:
Miror B. wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game)

I've seen people set up the most ridiculous chain involving 2 LaDDs, 2 Doomcals, Pole Position and about 3 other cards and call an admin just to see if they can figure it out.

Mind Explodes!

This is a rare situation and don't even see how it happened to begin with.

**Miror B.** 2012-01-24, 01:29

DarkRiku wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
Miror B. wrote:
Badass_Bunny wrote:(And doesn't have ridiculus questions that you would never encounter in a game)

I've seen people set up the most ridiculous chain involving 2 LaDDs, 2 Doomcals, Pole Position and about 3 other cards and call an admin just to see if they can figure it out.

Mind Explodes!

This is a rare situation and don't even see how it happened to begin with.

They literally set it up.

This was back before I was a mod, and the 2 guys bragged about it on another forum I frequent.

**Metta World Peace** 2012-01-24, 01:42

you should have banned those morons

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-24, 01:51

CheyMcFly wrote:
Chief wrote:Wait there's a thread discussing about how this exam is too hard.....
I think it was the test in general, but the general opinion that I have noticed is that it is too hard. But you guys want it to be hard. Idk. I haven't taken it yet
not done studying :3

Good. Study ftw.

**CheyMcFly** 2012-01-24, 01:57

Asherpotter wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
Chief wrote:Wait there's a thread discussing about how this exam is too hard.....
I think it was the test in general, but the general opinion that I have noticed is that it is too hard. But you guys want it to be hard. Idk. I haven't taken it yet
not done studying :3
Good. Study ftw.

Any helpful places to study Very Happy

I want to be well prepared
*puts on nerdface*

**Key** 2012-01-24, 01:58

**Red_Chaos** 2012-01-24, 02:01

Key wrote:Pojo

why doesn't konami just make a 24 hour hot line...

**Lovelace** 2012-01-24, 02:03

Key uses pojo? o.O i thought I was the only pojoer here =o

**AsherpotterCOPY** 2012-01-24, 02:03

CheyMcFly wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
Chief wrote:Wait there's a thread discussing about how this exam is too hard.....
I think it was the test in general, but the general opinion that I have noticed is that it is too hard. But you guys want it to be hard. Idk. I haven't taken it yet
not done studying :3
Good. Study ftw.

Any helpful places to study
I want to be well prepared
*puts on nerdface*

**T3RCX** 2012-01-24, 07:18

Well, if you really want to analyze the difficulty of the test, you have to look at more than just the raw results (which say next to nothing on their own). There are a variety of factors that could influence the capacity of a given individual to score well on this particular test. One of them that hasn't been mentioned is background education. You might divide up all users of DN (more specifically, everyone who attempted the admin exam) into a few educational groups like so:

-Middle-school education level (approx. ages 10-13)
-High-school education level (approx. ages 14-18)
-College-level education
-Graduate-level education

Without doing any age sampling, I would estimate that the userbase of DN falls mainly in the high-school education level, with fair amounts slightly below and slightly above. Within each category, you have to consider things like test-taking skills, reading comprehension, grammatical understanding, and etc.; additionally, there are factors game related that don't depend entirely on background education (though may be correlated) such as technical gameplay experience and background, memorization of prior rulings, attention to detail, and others. Furthermore, it wouldn't be entirely accurate to presuppose that falling into a higher education bracket means that you should be more inclined to do well on the exam (although I would wager that there is on average some upward trend) because once you get into the collegiate level of education, your experience becomes limited by your own focused field of study, and the skills you acquire there may not fall in line with the kinds of skills required on this exam.

So then the real issue is, what are the skills needed for this exam, and what type of background education would provide those skills? Every question on the exam is a question of rulings, which is fundamentally gameplay mechanics, so we can modify the question as follows: What are the skills needed to have a complete and thorough comprehension of the mechanics of this game? Based on my own experience, I would name these ones as the most important:
1. Reading comprehension - Rulings are questions of effects vs effects, or interactions of effects with established game rules. Being able to read the rulebook or card effects and understanding that every word has a precise meaning (and knowing what those meanings are) is probably the most important skill. If you are the kind of person who tends to, for example, do well in school with assignments where you have to read something and then answer questions about the reading, you may have the solid background education needed to do well on this exam.
2. Logical recognition/construction of patterns - The nature of mechanics (of all kinds) is understanding how fundamental particles interact with forces which manipulate them in various ways but do not change what they are. Put another way, rules and effects are like pieces of stone; they are immutable and never change, but you can fit them together in various ways to make shapes and patterns. To fully comprehend the mechanics behind this game, you have to not only understand the meaning of each text, but also grasp how they all fit together and interact, and more importantly, grasp that the ways in which they fit together are precise and follow specific rules and laws. If you are a person who does well in areas like mathematics, or someone who does well not by memorizing but by understanding the underlying principles of something, you may have the solid background education needed to do well on this exam.
3. Deductive Reasoning - Every situation is different, and new cards come out all the time. For these reasons, being able to look at a situation with solid but limited information, apply your background knowledge, and reach a logical conclusion without ever (or rarely) having to do any "guesswork" is an essential skill. Can you give a reasonable explanation as to why Tengu doesn't get to use its effect when detached as Xyz material? Can you give a reasonable explanation as to why Tengu doesn't get to use its effect when it *becomes* Xyz material? You don't need to know the answers to these questions to give a correct ruling in this scenario, but if the only things you know are answers without knowing or even having some idea of why those answers are true, you may not be as prepared to be an admin as you think.

I believe that full comprehension of this game, and success on the admin exam, is based upon these three skills. So the conclusion is this: Forget about how much you have memorized or how many rulings you know. Forget about how many questions you've helped other people with. Forget about how long you've played this game or how many tournaments you've gone to. Look at yourself and ask yourself honestly... Do you believe that you have good reading comprehension skills? Do you believe that you are good at logically constructing patterns and scenarios? Do you believe you have good deductive reasoning skills? And can you point to evidence in your prior education or experience that supports your belief in your own skills?

(As for all other scenarios not related to rulings or gameplay, we have a guide posted by Det for that.)

**Chief** 2012-01-24, 08:38

1. the test isn't too hard. You guys just don't know rulings if you're complaining.
2. An admin who doesn't know rulings is a useless admin.
3. Giant paragraphs means nothing.
Just do what ashpotter did, use sources for every question. It clearly says you can do that.

**CheyMcFly** 2012-01-24, 14:01

Asherpotter wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
Asherpotter wrote:
CheyMcFly wrote:
Chief wrote:Wait there's a thread discussing about how this exam is too hard.....
I think it was the test in general, but the general opinion that I have noticed is that it is too hard. But you guys want it to be hard. Idk. I haven't taken it yet
not done studying :3
Good. Study ftw.

Any helpful places to study
I want to be well prepared
*puts on nerdface*
Official rulebook:
http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/rulebook/YGO_RuleBook_EN-v8.pdf

New problem-solving text articles:
http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=2906
http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=2915
http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=2947
http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=2962
http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=3111
http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=3140

DN forum articles:
http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/t2754-ruling-faq-clearing-up-the-most-confusable-rulings
http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/t660-ruling-101-priority
http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/t4003-xyz-rulings-how-they-should-be-used-on-dn

Wikia articles:
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/SEGOC
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Priority
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Missing_the_Timing
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Breakdown_of_the_Battle_Phase
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Replay
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Infinite_Loop
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Condition_Effect
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Lingering_Effect
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Summoning_mechanics
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Condition_Effect
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Limbo
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Chain
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Chains,_Activation,_and_Resolution
http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Activation_%26_Targeting_Eligibility

Pojo ruling threads:
http://www.pojo.biz/board/showthread.php?t=992701

Thank you :3!

**Itou2** 2012-01-24, 15:53

Was the exam only for a set time or? Cause It says I'm not eligible.
I'm a ruling freak and feel kinda bad missing out.

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