Why it is difficult to take this game seriously

Hey. I'm a long-time upper-tier MTG player (in addition to being involved or participating in high-tier DotA, CS:S, SC, WC3, WH40k, and probably any other competitive game you can name). I started playing Yugioh purely on DN after my roommates and I started playing it as a joke. We found the game surprisingly fun and have been playing for several months now (purely on DN). After spending a good deal of time seriously attempting to build competitive decks, one of my friends and I bought $30-40ish decks we made and went to a local tournament, stomping our way to 1st and 2nd nearly undefeated.

It's unfortunate, because I really like Yugioh's play style and dynamic gameplay and find it more enjoyable than M:TG, but there are just too many fatal issues with the game that I am seeing that are driving myself and most-likely most other seriously competitive players away.
This isn't a complaint-for-the-sake-of-complaint thread. I'm actually hoping someone can correct or clarify some of the things I am seeing. Maybe I'm misunderstanding certain things. I think it would be really cool for Yugioh to become a legit competitive game and I have defended it several times, but there are just some things I can't find acceptable as a competitive player.

The number one absolute without a doubt biggest issue with this game right now (and the focus of this post) are the rules and judges. There are so many exceptions and rulings (and bad rulings) that, combined with vague card effects that are, in many cases, paragraphs in length, the game is basically in an unplayable state. It feels like a game still in beta. As if it wasn't enough, card translations are oftentimes off, causing even further grief.
How can anybody take a game seriously in which the rules made essentially made up on the spot during large tournaments. I never see rulebook or errata reference. I only see biased case references that have no basis in any type of established rules set.
An example that I find extremely worrying:

The "ruling" on Black Horn of Heaven and similar cards, for example, is completely made up.

For background clarification, this is the argument:

Spoiler:

I'm under the impression that every argument used in that ruling is completely made up.
Reading every official rules release, there is no such thing as a "stack" (MTG term) in Yugioh. When you play a monster, it is immediately placed on the field. The "limbo zone" was never actually a part of the game. As far as I know, a judge made it up at some point and all his judge friends agreed. According to the OCG ruling (in which BHoH cannot be activated once the monster has "hit the field"), you can never use BHoH because there is no such thing as this mysterious "monster summon response window" or "limbo zone" in the game in which BHoH can be used.

allow me to quote the rules text from the official version 8.0 rulebook:

Spoiler:

That doesn't really say much and there is no relevant information concerning the argument. The following section "special summoning with an effect of another card" seems promising, but it only outlines that cards cannot be special summoned with an effect unless they were, first, properly fusion or synchro summoned.

According to the special summon rules section, it seems to comply with the same skeletal procedure as normal summoning. I will quote that.

Spoiler:

I don't see anything even remotely implying or even suggesting the implication of a "stack" or "limbo zone".

Furthermore, even within the mysterious rulings that have been divined, the argument that "nothing can be done in the middle of a chain resolution" holds no ground. They have already broken that rule multiple times, anyway. Apparently special summoning a monster starts a summon response chain. As long as a monster is "special summoned" Why can't there be a chain started in the middle of a chain? Nobody knows because the rules had no basis in any core rulings to begin with.
To remedy this, they made up new things called "inherent summons" which they may as well have called "super secret special summons" considering how ridiculous and shady it is.
I don't know about everyone else, but that all just sounds completely ludicrous and way too shady for any seriously player to want to invest in.

Many other rules are either poorly worded (an example is Light and Darkness Dragon. It is a complete and utter nightmare in which none of the rulings for individual cards are consistent with any of the others.) or, again, purely made up (compulsory effects and "missing the timing" are all made up rules around which the game was not balanced.)

If anyone can correct anything I've said with actual core rules and official backing, I will be happily put at ease. From a competitors stand-point, a game in which a judge can make up a rule on the spot uncontested and without the need for rules backing, possibly eliminating you from a big tournament, is a huge turn-off.


There are a few other concerns, such as the huge luck issue involved with limited cards like mirror force, black hole, TDS, Heavy, etc. and the fact that built-in archetypes are oftentimes way stronger than any custom-made deck and basically dictate how the game is to be played. That is, simply searching for every card with "six samurai" in it, picking out some good ones, and putting three of each in a deck with all of the mandatory traps and spells will, after slight tweaking, often result in a deck way stronger than nearly any possible of the difficult-to-make decks utilizing a wide variety of cards. I will not elaborate too much on these points, however, as the rules issue is what really sucks out all of the good elements of the game for me.


It is concerning that I can leave a won single casual game of Yugioh more annoyed and flustered than I leave a lost game in a big HoN or SC tournament, there must be an issue.

i dont get what has you so confused about not being able to negate summon by effects with horn

and all cards able to negate summons works like it and share the same ruling i dont see the exceptions you are talking about



all your complains are about well known game mechanic (like the part about not being able to chain a card mid chain (in case you dont know its when a chain is resolving)

The explanation with a "limbo zone" seems stupid, the way I see it is as following:
When you normal summon a monster it just gets placed on the field, but when you summon a monster with an effect then that effect resolves while that monster is summoned, so when the monster is summoned it can be negated because the card is still resolving.

Also card translations isn't anyones fault except for the one who translates them and as far as I know it isn't anyone from DN and by adding the translated cards, it just gives us a bit more time to play around with them.

raidou wrote:i dont get what has you so confused about not being able to negate summon by effects with horn

and all cards able to negate summons works like it and share the same ruling i dont see the exceptions you are talking about



all your complains are about well known game mechanic (like the part about not being able to chain a card mid chain (in case you dont know its when a chain is resolving)

I mean any negation trap, not just BHoH.

I don't demonstrate any confusion at all. I understand crystal-clear what the official rules text and official errata say and how, to any unbiased spectator, the ruling is pretty clearly wrong. The fact that a new rule book (or several?) has come out since many core game-changing rulings with no changes concerning the subjects throws the "temporary errata" types of arguments out the window. If there is such a thing as missing the timing or a "limbo zone" why have they not made it into any of the official rules anywhere?

Again, to someone who has not been around since the game's inception it looks like there are a pile of hidden rules that any judge can use for any shady reason he wants. Maybe it is different if you have been wit the game for 5 years. If you want the game to continue growing, however, it just can't be that way. I've already seen enough drama from people getting eliminated from big tournaments because of questionable rulings. Why would a competitor want to compete in such a rag-tag environment? Even WH40k, another shady game, references the rulebook more than Yugioh does (see:never).

But the SS ruling isn't so different from M:TG.
It's just like Counterspell.

Yes, in fact. The vague "limbo zone" that the ruling alludes to is, actually, the exact same concept as the "stack" in MTG. In MTG it is a very clean mechanic and it utilized by every spell in the game. Having a stack in Yugioh would be fine with me. It's a good mechanic. The fact that it is no where in the rules is the problem. The rules clearly say that the monster goes straight from the hand to the field and no simple card ruling from a judge should change that. An errata or rulebook change is necessary.

Also card translations isn't anyones fault except for the one who translates them and as far as I know it isn't anyone from DN and by adding the translated cards, it just gives us a bit more time to play around with them.

I understand that it isn't DNs fault. DN is a great tool

Just gonna say that iirc the judges at the first YCS were told to make up the ruels on the spot and they'd become official later.

So you're actually right.

The game has a complex set of rules at first glance, though take the time to figure stuff out and the only confusion stuff will be BKSS.

Problem solving text helps with some stuff (cost vs effect, continuous or ignition effects, targeting etc), but some rules still need to be looked up to understand (like BHoH), and some are just retarded (missing the timing).

Sadly, we've gone too far to change this stuff. If we were to change missing the timing for example, Gusto's would become the most broken sh*t ever. If we were to null out the cost vs effect rules, Dark Wolds would have a much stronger arsenal of discard outlets. If we were to allow BHoH to negate effects, we'd also have to allow Rai-Oh to negate effect, making Rai-Oh much more of a powerhouse than it already is.

So while you may be perfectly correct and at no fault, the game just can't change now without some pretty major effects in the form of a power shift.

Miror B. wrote:Just gonna say that iirc the judges at the first YCS were told to make up the ruels on the spot and they'd become official later.

So you're actually right.

The game has a complex set of rules at first glance, though take the time to figure stuff out and the only confusion stuff will be BKSS.

Problem solving text helps with some stuff (cost vs effect, continuous or ignition effects, targeting etc), but some rules still need to be looked up to understand (like BHoH), and some are just retarded (missing the timing).

Sadly, we've gone too far to change this stuff. If we were to change missing the timing for example, Gusto's would become the most broken sh*t ever. If we were to null out the cost vs effect rules, Dark Wolds would have a much stronger arsenal of discard outlets. If we were to allow BHoH to negate effects, we'd also have to allow Rai-Oh to negate effect, making Rai-Oh much more of a powerhouse than it already is.

So while you may be perfectly correct and at no fault, the game just can't change now without some pretty major effects in the form of a power shift.

I don't mean to say everything should be changed or that there should be a huge overhaul. I mean there needs to be an actual set of core rules that order all of the unofficial rulings into set mechanics that make some semblance of sense even if it is just a temporary errata made by judges. Not twenty pages of cases and exceptions, but one single set of universal mechanics that envelope all cases with as few exceptions as possible.

As it stands now, the game is completely open to all sorts of bad rulings and corrupt judges. It is way too difficult to get screwed over by "the rules" and any player coming from another competitive game will just look at the huge mess and not even give it a chance.

demonwing wrote:

Miror B. wrote:Just gonna say that iirc the judges at the first YCS were told to make up the ruels on the spot and they'd become official later.

So you're actually right.

The game has a complex set of rules at first glance, though take the time to figure stuff out and the only confusion stuff will be BKSS.

Problem solving text helps with some stuff (cost vs effect, continuous or ignition effects, targeting etc), but some rules still need to be looked up to understand (like BHoH), and some are just retarded (missing the timing).

Sadly, we've gone too far to change this stuff. If we were to change missing the timing for example, Gusto's would become the most broken sh*t ever. If we were to null out the cost vs effect rules, Dark Wolds would have a much stronger arsenal of discard outlets. If we were to allow BHoH to negate effects, we'd also have to allow Rai-Oh to negate effect, making Rai-Oh much more of a powerhouse than it already is.

So while you may be perfectly correct and at no fault, the game just can't change now without some pretty major effects in the form of a power shift.

I don't mean to say everything should be changed or that there should be a huge overhaul. I mean there needs to be an actual set of core rules that order all of the unofficial rulings into set mechanics that make some semblance of sense even if it is just a temporary errata made by judges. Not twenty pages of cases and exceptions, but one single set of universal mechanics that envelope all cases with as few exceptions as possible.

As it stands now, the game is completely open to all sorts of bad rulings and corrupt judges. It is way too difficult to get screwed over by "the rules" and any player coming from another competitive game will just look at the huge mess and not even give it a chance.

There IS a set of core rules.

BHoH's ruling is the same as Rai-Oh and Solemn Judgment.
Anything that does what BHoH does has the exact same ruling
BHoH has the core ruling about negating the summon. If a judge says Rai-Oh can negate Stardust's returning to the field summon, they're wrong and can't say otherwise because Rai-Oh can't negate a summon through an activating effect.

EDIT: Also, LaDD is a BKSS ruling because if it didn't have that ruling, it would loop and continuously try to negate itself.

There IS a set of core rules.

BHoH's ruling is the same as Rai-Oh and Solemn Judgment.
Anything that does what BHoH does has the exact same ruling
BHoH has the core ruling about negating the summon. If a judge says Rai-Oh can negate Stardust's returning to the field summon, they're wrong and can't say otherwise because Rai-Oh can't negate a summon through an activating effect.

EDIT: Also, LaDD is a BKSS ruling because if it didn't have that ruling, it would loop and continuously try to negate itself.

That is not a set of core rules.
Those are all exceptions based off of nothing. There is no such thing as a "stack" and there is nothing reconciling the fact that certain things disobey chain rules (such as all effect monsters) with the "in the middle of chain resolution" arguments. Again, I am talking from a competitive perspective. that sort of rag-tagness is just unacceptable for a serious game.

If you just want a fun, casual game it is fine (despite being tedious and tiresome trying to figure out how everything works in any given situation). If you want Yugioh to be taken seriously, it needs real rules and that is all there is to it. As it stands, the rulings are flat-out wrong and have no backing in real rules.

A list of exceptions is not the same a list of rules. I don't understand how this ever came to be in Yugioh.

They aren't exceptions, they're a set of rulings.

It's all about the wording.

Any thing that says "When (insert condition here) you can (insert effect here)" misses the timing.
Anything that doesn't does not miss the timing.

Anything that only says "You can negate the Summon of a monster" cannot negate monster reborn.

They aren't exceptions, they are the rules.

And I don't know what the "in the middle of chain resolution" means. Only cards that bypass chains are continuous effects like Bountiful Artemis, which doesn't activate.

In YuGiOh there is a difference between a "response" and a "chain". A card can be played in response to any action, i.e. drawing a card, summoning a monster, etc. Chaining, however, only applies to activating a card effect in response to another card effect. The "chain" is is the equivalent of a "stack" for MtG. If an action is taken, then a card can be activated in response to the action. This can then start a chain if there are any other effects that can be activated.

One big difference between YGO and MtG is that for YGO card wording is very precise in terms of how rulings are. This applies especially toward whether a card is able to respond to an action or to an effect.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Black Horn of Heaven versus Solemn Warning for instance:

Black Horn of Heaven wrote:Negate the Special Summon of 1 of your opponent's monsters and destroy it.

Solemn Warning wrote:When a monster would be Summoned, OR when a Spell Card, Trap Card or Effect Monster's effect is activated that includes an effect that Special Summons a monster(s): Pay 2000 Life Points; negate the Summon OR activation, and destroy that card.

In the case of BHoH, only the Summon can be responded to, not an effect which summons. For SW it specifies that it is able to negate both a Summon or an effect which Summons.

The main difference here is that BHoH can only be activated in response to the action of a Summon. SW can be activated in response to both an action and an effect which Special Summons. This is what people refer to when they mean an "inherent" Summon. An "inherent" summon is a summon done without an effect. As far as the "chain" goes, both players add to the chain of effects. No effects resolve until neither player wants to add to the chain. This means that once all effects are finalized the chain resolves.

If a monster is summoned during the "resolution" of the chain, the effect has already resolved and cannot be negated, but it can be responded to. This is also where card "timing" comes into play. This only affects optional effects in most cases, but also affects when certain cards can be activated.
_____________________________________________________________________________
For "mandatory" effects, they are usually in the format "When/If....: Do this." This is not optional in the slightest and (as long as the conditions are met) must be carried out if possible during the effect's resolution.

For "optional" effects, they are usually in the format "When/If....: You can do this." These are cards which have a choice involved, but there is a distinction between "If" and "When".

The "When" keyword specifies that an option can happen at that instance only. This means that if there is another action that happens before the effect's option can be carried out, it is too late to use it. (I'll give an example soon).

The "If" keyword specifies that an option can happen at any time after the resolution of the effect as long as the condition is met. These kind of optional effects cannot miss timing because of this.
_____________________________________________________________________________

Example wrote:You tribute Summon a Summoned Skull using Sangan as the Tribute.
Let's look at what would happen if Sangan were to change with the various wordings of the card effects:
"When/If this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: Add 1 monster with 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand." You must add a monster with 1500ATK to the hand if able.
"When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: You can add 1 monster with 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand." You cannot activate the effect because the last action to happen would be the Summon of Summoned Skull, not the sending of Sangan to the Graveyard.
"If this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard: You can add 1 monster with 1500 or less ATK from your Deck to your hand." You can activate the effect because the condition was met, regardless of anything else.

There are some things which can be considered BS, but most of the game mechanics are complete. Its just that they are extremely specific. This can make it difficult for new players to the game, especially if they are used to other game systems with difference mechanics.

If there is anything else you'd like clarity on, post so I can attempt to shed light on it.

Miror B. wrote:They aren't exceptions, they're a set of rulings.

It's all about the wording.

Any thing that says "When (insert condition here) you can (insert effect here)" misses the timing.
Anything that doesn't does not miss the timing.

Anything that only says "You can negate the Summon of a monster" cannot negate monster reborn.

They aren't exceptions, they are the rules.

And I don't know what the "in the middle of chain resolution" means. Only cards that bypass chains are continuous effects like Bountiful Artemis, which doesn't activate.

The two examples you provide are not rules. They are conclusions. For example, consider the following sentence: "When Swap Frog attacks Tradetoad (both in attack position), the owner of tradetoad loses 900 life points and trade toad is destroyed, resulting in it's removal from the field and its placement in the original owner's graveyard".
This is not a rule. It is a conclusion that can be clearly derived from the basic combat section of the rulebook. Under your philosophy, it would be perfectly alright to remove the basic combat rules and,instead, write a small paragraph for every monster in the game concerning its interaction with every other monster in the game when they battle.

Unfortunately, the two rulings you used as examples contradict each other on a very basic level.

All effect monsters bypass the "cannot activate in the middle of the chain" clause. Take Dupe Frog, an ordinary optional monster effect. If a single dark hole is played, Dupe Frog is destroyed and his effect resolves even though the chain has not finished resolving yet. When he is "sent to the graveyard", dark hole is still on the field, thus the chain is still active, yet he is still allowed to resolve his effect for some reason because it was the "last thing to occur" (which is different from not being part of a chain).

In the case of BHoH vs Monster reborn, if I use the above logic then BHoH should be able to activate because the special summon was the last thing to happen in the game. The logic somehow works against it in this case, however. NOW you can't activate things in the middle of a chain which is in direct opposition to the previous case with dupe frog (despite BHoH being an even faster spell speed).

The two examples use two completely different sets of rules. Who decided how what works and what is stopping them from making up more randomly generated rulings? Nothing. There are no rules, only individual bits of disconnected rulings made up on the fly that have little to no correlation with each other. A competent player should not still be struggling with something as basic as the rules of the game two months in just because each individual card and new archetype has several special paragraphs for its ruling.

Here is an example of some rules that would actually make sense. comments preceded by % signs.

Spoiler:

Of course this was done hastily and is not worded perfectly or very concisely, but those are examples of actual rules. I'm not going to sit here for you and rewrite every ruling as a basic mechanic, but suddenly many things all seem to make sense if you were to look at the game that way. A catch-all set of rules that can be referenced as a ruling to any card without requiring the aid of twelve erratas and individual card rulings along with a judge's opinion is necessary for any competitive game.

Right now, the game is way to difficult to learn (and not because it is necessarily more complex than other games, I assure you) and will only get worse as more rulings are added until so many contradict each other that nothing short of a complete overhaul will fix them. The game, in its current form, is still salvageable. It NEEDS a core set of rules, official or not. Referencing judge Frank's opinion on the subject isn't good enough. You guys are better than this. Anyone who disagrees that a tabletop game needs a rulebook is crazy.


Edit: To the person who I got ninja'd by above, the stack in magic isn't the same as a chain in Yugioh. MTGs stack is a much more robust mechanic, allowing actual cards to be placed on it with some other additional features. I understand the difference between a chain and a response window. I understand how all of the rulings work. The problem is they are based on nothing. No rule book, no basic mechanics. They are just made up. Who is to say that BHoH can't negate any special summon? It clearly states on Monster Reborn that you are "special summoning" a monster. Why can't you negate that special summon? It is too ambiguous. Now, it is fine that someone decided it should be done that way, but mechanics need to be made to ensure the game's stability and clarity. I'm not saying change the rules. I'm saying MAKE rules. It would prevent most bad judge rulings, it would take a ton of grief out of the game, it would make it more accessible for new competitive players, and it would just plain be more professional.

Swap Frog activates AFTER the chain has resolved. The chain is no longer in effect, so it is not activating in the middle of a chain.

And apparently you don't know what "rules" are. "Rules" are a set of guidelines. "Missing the timing" is a rule, not a conclusion, and has been a rule since the beginning.

You are a bit confused.

The example you just used with Dark Hole and Dupe Frog are wrong. Dupe Frog's effect will start a new chain after Dark Hole's effect is resolved and it is in the grave.

Anyone who tells you otherwise in that situation or similar are mistaken. Very few effects happen outside of the chain (of them Counter Fairies, The Fabled Unicore, Machina Fortress, etc). These few cards only occur outside the chain because they are continuous effects that need no activation.

Also, the Stack for Magic and the Chain for YGO are equivalents of each other. They both are ways of determining interactions for card effects and card resolutions. They work the same way. If you don't believe me, give me a scenario for comparison to prove your point.

Miror B. wrote:Swap Frog activates AFTER the chain has resolved. The chain is no longer in effect, so it is not activating in the middle of a chain.

And apparently you don't know what "rules" are. "Rules" are a set of guidelines. "Missing the timing" is a rule, not a conclusion, and has been a rule since the beginning.

No. Dupe Frog clearly is destroyed while the chain is resolving therefore his effect is clearly somehow triggering in the middle of the chain despite not being a mandatory effect even if the activation for some reason occurs in a new chain. "Oh but if it was the last thing that happened in the game then. . ."
Do you not see how ludicrous this is? Why would anyone tolerate this? Such a simple rule is made to be completely stupid and complex because people can't accept that their rules system is in shambles and need of repair.

"A chain finishes resolving simultaneously with the final effect of chain link 1"

Wow. Amazing! The entire paragraph of contradictions that need to be justified with exceptions all falls away. Effect monsters no longer magically kinda trigger in the middle of a chain but only if it was the last thing to happen in the game but the effect still happens after the chain in a new chain and suddenly your game doesn't look stupid anymore.

Again, I'm not saying the gameplay should be changed. There just needs to be rules. Anyone saying this isn't a problem in Yugioh either doesn't care about growing the game, has no experience with any other competitive games, or is in denial.

Also, the Stack for Magic and the Chain for YGO are equivalents of each other. They both are ways of determining interactions for card effects and card resolutions. They work the same way. If you don't believe me, give me a scenario for comparison to prove your point.

I don't even believe you have played MTG after making that statement. I'm not even going to entertain it with a paragraph, but with only one example. A creature played in Magic goes on the stack as a spell and does not hit the field as a creature until resolution. It is actually a real area in the game that cards can be placed in. There is nothing like this in Yugioh.

No, Dupe Frog activates AFTER the chain. Not before the chain ends :/

Cards being sent to the Graveyard due to being used up (I.E. not due to an effect) are not actions on the field.

The last "action" was everything dying. So Dupe Frog activates after the chain ends.

On a final note: If you don't like how complicated and contradictory the rules are, maybe you shouldn't play the game.

Your only discrepancy for the difference between a Chain and a Stack is card placement? That doesn't show that they are not equivalent for what they do. The only difference I see is that in YGO the summon of a monster does not add to a Chain whereas in MtG a summon of a monster adds to the Stack.

That difference is because in MtG all cards are considered being "Cast" meaning they are all the equivalent of spells with different speeds. AKA Summoning a monster in MtG is casting a spell which summons a monster, which is the equivalent of using a card effect in YGO to summon a monster.

There is no proper equivalent in MtG to what is considered an "inherent" summon in YGO. That is something in which I concede and am apologizing for my previous error, but the Chain and Stack are still fundamental in both games and do the same thing.

In YGO, a chain must first fully resolve before other chains can be started. This is why Dupe Frog starts a new chain after Dark Hole resolves, not during.

(Also, why are you insulting me? I have played both games and have a well-rounded understanding of multiple game mechanics from many different game types from miniatures to table-top role-playing games to various TCGs.)

Miror B. wrote:No, Dupe Frog activates AFTER the chain. Not before the chain ends :/

Cards being sent to the Graveyard due to being used up (I.E. not due to an effect) are not actions on the field.

The last "action" was everything dying. So Dupe Frog activates after the chain ends.

On a final note: If you don't like how complicated and contradictory the rules are, maybe you shouldn't play the game.

Yes, he does activate after the chain, but his trigger of "when this card is sent to the graveyard" occurs in the middle of a chain (things are destroyed by Dark Hole in the middle of the chain's resolution), the very definition of "missing the timing". Technically only mandatory effects are allowed to trigger in the middle of a chain and still resolve after it. Of course, the "last action" exception makes everything work the way you claim.
If you can't see that it is stupid and that one single sentence says the exact same thing without any room for discussion or error, maybe this game doesn't deserve a competitive scene.

Your rules are not complicated. They are bad. The game is good. I thinks it's very fun and has a lot of potential. The rules, however, are just plain bad. If you don't care that your game's competitive scene is a complete joke right now because of one huge, correctable flaw, then maybe you really don't deserve nice things after all.
It's unfathomable how strong of a "deal with it" attitude you guys have like you're that hot when you are basically just the cess pool of competitive table top games right now. Yugioh players aren't really in the position to maintain any sort of elitism.

@overlord I got you mixed up with the "deal with it" guy. The problem is, once again, that Dupe Frog's trigger happens in the middle of a chain. This is undebatable. Optional effects are supposed to fizzle if they trigger in the middle of a chain. I understand how it is supposed to work, but the wording and the rules to back up the supposed ruling just isn't there. This isn't arguing what rules are right or wrong. I'm proposing to keep the gameplay exactly as it is with no essential change. There just needs to be rules and core mechanics established to prevent bad rulings and to not scare off (for 100% good reason) more mature players who want to pick the game up. Almost nobody I know would tolerate the way the rulings are presented right now. "Way too shady".

Dark Hole is the end of that chain, though. Once Dark Hole resolves (which is when all cards in the chain go to their proper places, in most cases the grave) it is the end of the chain. Its not in the middle of it at all. The last action to take place in the chain was Dark Hole resolving, which is the destruction of Dupe Frog. Nothing else resolves in that chain.

The sending of the cards to the grave (or wherever specified on certain cards) that were involved in a chain are a part of game mechanics and not an action taken by either player. That is why they do not count toward timing.

If there were another effect that were to resolve after Dark Hole, or if Dark Hole had some secondary effect, then Dupe Frog cannot have its effect activated.

Ryko, The Lightsworn Hunter is a great example of this. After Ryko destroys Dupe Frog with his effect, the rest of the effect resolves milling 3 cards. Because the last action involved in the chain was the milling, Dupe Frog's effect cannot activate because the timing was in the middle of the effect resolution of another card.

demonwing wrote:Yes, he does activate after the chain, but his trigger of "when this card is sent to the graveyard" occurs in the middle of a chain (things are destroyed by Dark Hole in the middle of the chain's resolution), the very definition of "missing the timing". Technically only mandatory effects are allowed to trigger in the middle of a chain and still resolve after it. Of course, the "last action" exception makes everything work the way you claim.
If you can't see that it is stupid and that one single sentence says the exact same thing without any room for discussion or error, maybe this game doesn't deserve a competitive scene.

Monster are destroyed after Dark Hole resolves. The effect of any card is applied after it resolves. So it wouldn't miss the timing since it wasn't destroyed during but after the chain.

demonwing wrote:
Your rules are not complicated. They are bad. The game is good. I thinks it's very fun and has a lot of potential. The rules, however, are just plain bad. If you don't care that your game's competitive scene is a complete joke right now because of one huge, correctable flaw, then maybe you really don't deserve nice things after all.
It's unfathomable how strong of a "deal with it" attitude you guys have like you're that hot when you are basically just the cess pool of competitive table top games right now. Yugioh players aren't really in the position to maintain any sort of elitism.

If rules are complicated they are bad, I'm a very rational person, but I never saw any paradoxes especially not with the summoning rule. You should compare this with MtG, this is way different with a different set of rules.

Also we don't have an elitism, we just respect the rules and see nothing wrong with them. And you shouldn't have any elitism either.

If the rules are bad the game is bad. That's the general rational. We are not the top of the game. But we are a game. I doubt you'd just sit by if I started saying MtG's rulings sucked while bringing up my version of proof (which I can't do because I don't play MtG)

I'm not an MtG fanboy, although I may come off as one in this thread. The game is tight as a vacuum in terms of mechanics, so I use it for many examples, but man has the gameplay turned as dry as a rock in recent years.
Except EDH. EDH is hella fun.

Anyway, you can be as satisfied as you want with the state of the game. I am not averse to anyone having their fun. The game just isn't at the quality of a competitive game or any game that can remotely be taken seriously and I guess the consensus is that that is the case. This, of course, does not affect casual players. If Yugioh is strictly a casual game (with neat little tournaments here and there) it is fine.

I just think that Yugioh has a ton of potential that nobody cares about. If it would just get it's crap together, it could definitely be up there with,if not exceed, MtG. I've seen plenty games like this go the same way, though. It isn't anything new. It's still neat how many cute archetypes there are to play with like clouds, batteries, etc. so I'll keep playing it casually. Just sad to see that is all this game will ever be.

i dont get it why does he says those rulings are exceptions ? if they are shouldnt he able to show which ones are the rules ? like a thunder king like effect able to negate summon by effects?

im kinda confused...why do you say dark hole can resolve in the middle of a chain? its a spell speed 1 card, it resolves and the chain ends...

yep for someone writing walls of texts about this game rules he doesnt even know how chain resolves

Okay, guys. You gotta look at it from his perspective, here.

The barrier to entry to competitive YGO is a LOT higher than Magic, L5R, or any other card game I've ever played in my life, and the reason for that is because the core rulebook is, for lack of a better word, total shite. In order to understand the game, you need to spend time learning the rulings and each subtle nuance of the game which are NOT clearly spelled out in the rules at all. To that end, it is very frustrating for a casual or new player to enter the competitive scene because the card rulings and effects are not often clearly spelled out. Yes, PSCT helped by finally differentiating between costs and effects and exactly what targets, but understanding the damage step alone is still worth an entire thread.

Magic functions on a fairly simple system. As I've described it to others in the past, if you have enough of the pretty colors in the top of the card in MTG, you can use it. Then, you just read the card and that's what happens.

Just as an example, I've come across ONE way of putting a card from your hand directly to the graveyard in MTG: Discarding.

In YGO, there's 3 ways: Discarding, Sending, and Tributing from the hand. Each of them are a different type of action that have the same result: the card moves from your hand to the graveyard. But the core rules don't explain the difference between these at all, relying on you to figure them out for yourself. In fact, I'd love to see some "Idiot-Proof" core rules for YGO, as it's an extremely fun game, but I often see people dismiss it because of all the little things you're supposed to know that inhibit the big picture of having the most fun possible.

Just my 2 cents. Respond as you will.

what you wrote on your post makes more sense than everything he wrote


and you forgot about the 4th way to send a card from hand to grave: destroying it

Crosswinds wrote:Okay, guys. You gotta look at it from his perspective, here.

The barrier to entry to competitive YGO is a LOT higher than Magic, L5R, or any other card game I've ever played in my life, and the reason for that is because the core rulebook is, for lack of a better word, total shite. In order to understand the game, you need to spend time learning the rulings and each subtle nuance of the game which are NOT clearly spelled out in the rules at all. To that end, it is very frustrating for a casual or new player to enter the competitive scene because the card rulings and effects are not often clearly spelled out. Yes, PSCT helped by finally differentiating between costs and effects and exactly what targets, but understanding the damage step alone is still worth an entire thread.

Magic functions on a fairly simple system. As I've described it to others in the past, if you have enough of the pretty colors in the top of the card in MTG, you can use it. Then, you just read the card and that's what happens.

Just as an example, I've come across ONE way of putting a card from your hand directly to the graveyard in MTG: Discarding.

In YGO, there's 3 ways: Discarding, Sending, and Tributing from the hand. Each of them are a different type of action that have the same result: the card moves from your hand to the graveyard. But the core rules don't explain the difference between these at all, relying on you to figure them out for yourself. In fact, I'd love to see some "Idiot-Proof" core rules for YGO, as it's an extremely fun game, but I often see people dismiss it because of all the little things you're supposed to know that inhibit the big picture of having the most fun possible.

Just my 2 cents. Respond as you will.

Something like this, but I disagree that Yugioh is more difficult to learn because it is any less simple than Magic. It is difficult to learn because there is no rule book and all of the rulings reference other rulings that were all made up on the spot, resulting in ridiculously long-winded mechanics that only serve as rule-traps. If Yugioh had a concise rule book (official or not) it would be just as easy to learn as MtG

To the kid foaming about when a chain resolves: you are right, I don't know when a chain actually stops existing. Guess what: neither do you. Nobody knows. Does a chain stop existing during the last effect of chain link 1? Does it stop existing directly after the last effect? Does it stop existing during cleanup or maybe even directly after cleanup?
It isn't in the rules, period.
It is just another rule waiting to for a judge to screw someone over with. You clearly don't understand even the most rudimentary theory behind proper game mechanics.

the chain ends when the card on cl1 resolves...whats so complicated about that?

S.S.A. wrote:the chain ends when the card on cl1 resolves...whats so complicated about that?

Making things up now are we? Where, exactly, does it say this anywhere? Please quote something or don't respond. When exactly does a card resolve? Does it resolve when it is sent to the graveyard as clean up or does it resolve simultaneously with its effect. Or does it resolve simultaneously with the final part of its effect. Or does it resolve directly after its effect.

You can't just throw an undefined word out like "resolve" with a "well, we all basically get it so what is the big deal?" in a competitive environment.

I think you have just all played the game for so long that you have just accepted how things work without questioning them. You aren't the high-rollers in any tournaments, though, and I guess you are satisfied with the current player base so I can see how this would be the case.

S.S.A. wrote:http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Resolution

Again, I feel you're missing the point. (Not just the above poster, but many others.) We've been playing this game long enough that, as Demonwing said, we take for granted how these things happen. But the interactions aren't explicitly laid out in the rulebook.

From what I understand, the chain finishes up when the effect of the last card resolves. At the same time, the card is sent to the graveyard if it was a one-time use spell or trap. However, this interaction, and indeed most interactions in the game, are never spelled out in plain black and white in the "rulebooks" that are distributed with the precon decks.

The major problem I have with YGO rulings and interactions are the infamous "BKSS" rulings. Because Konami says this card is the one exception to the rule, the entirety of that piece of the game is called into question. If this card does this, but this card does not and they both have the same text, then what does that mean for the uniformity of the game? (Short Answer: Rapes it 8 ways to Sunday).

I've been trying to consolidate a lot of the information people need to know into a handy .rtf file so I can use it to teach others, but to say it's a slow process is an understatement.

Tl;Dr: The rulebooks we get with product are shite and lead to a lot of confusion.

This why this game is difficult to take seriously

https://imgur.com/kz4tp

Rulebooks only tell you the simple things you need to know, but they only go so far and don't explain more complicated things that you need to know for tournaments like missing timing [Correct me if I'm wrong...]

From my understanding "resolve" means that the card's effect is being performed because it was not interrupted by another card effect. A normal spell would go to the graveyard after all its possible effects are performed.

Since "When...you can" effects can be triggered after for example dark hole destroys E Hero Absolute zero [We'll ASSUME Absolute Zero is a "When...you can..." effect; we can all assume that Dark Hole's last effect resolving; Dark hole being sent to the graveyard; and Absolute zero leaving the field happen all at the same time. This is the chain of events I see when such a situation happens.

-Dark Hole is activated
- *Brief Window for chain activation*
- *No response, card resolves*
- Destruction effect triggered; Zero destroyed
- *All possible effects of Dark hole have been triggered; sends Dark Hole AND Zero to respective areas; chain ends*

In this case Dark Hole AND Zero were sent to the grave at the exact same time so it was the last thing to happen, so Zero can activate his effect.

Now I believe a chain ends when all possible card effects in that chain resolve. This example is if dark bribe was chained to Dark Hole.

-Dark Hole is activated
- *Brief Window for chain activation*
- *Response; Dark bribe attempts to negate Dark Hole*
- *Window for chaining...*
- *No response, Dark bribe resolves*
- *As part of Dark bribe's effect, Dark hole is negated and destroyed*
- *Dark hole is sent to the graveyard AND player draws 1 card*
- *Dark Bribe has resolved completely; sending to graveyard*
- *Dark Hole's effect has been negated, hence this part of the chain is null; chain ends.*

Now you notice I write the words "I belive...", rulebooks just don't explain things good enough, so some things are just how we think they happen. Player A thinks Dark hole is sent to the graveyard after its effect is resolved; Player B thinks it heads to the graveyard at the same time its effect resolves. The problem is most of the time it doesn't make much difference so it doesn't really bother us and we don't bother to come to 1 same conclusion.

Galkin wrote:Rulebooks only tell you the simple things you need to know, but they only go so far and don't explain more complicated things that you need to know for tournaments like missing timing [Correct me if I'm wrong...]

Only in this game bro. That is the point.

This why this game is difficult to take seriously

https://imgur.com/kz4tp

Nah. Ridiculously easy auto-build hero decks are fine. They aren't even that strong anyway unless they draw an above-average hand.

going to browse the rulebook, to be fair i never have

http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/rulebook/YGO_RuleBook_EN-v8.pdf

dunno what rulebook you guys read but this one described chains and resolutions of chains fairly well, atleast passably well

S.S.A. wrote:going to browse the rulebook, to be fair i never have

http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/rulebook/YGO_RuleBook_EN-v8.pdf

dunno what rulebook you guys read but this one described chains and resolutions of chains fairly well, atleast passably well

That is passable?
There is nothing defining when the chain ends. In fact, according to the core rules, spells and traps are sent to the graveyard after its effect resolves, not as any sort of "cleanup step" or anything like that at the end of the chain.

Spoiler:

As such, if you actually read the rules, this is how the following situation:

Player A activates Dark Hole
Player B responds by activating compulsory evacuation device on one of his monsters

would go:

1. compulsory evacuation device effect resolves and, simultaneous, the monster returns to the hand
2. Compulsory evacuation device is sent to the graveyard
3. Dark hole resolves and simultaneously kills everything
4. Dark Hole is sent to the graveyard.
5. Chain ceases existence

Sounds A LOT different then what you guys seem to think happens. Sounds like some judge made up rules to me and everyone looked the other way.

no...thats exactly what i think should happen, and exactly the way i play it out in decks like chain burn where the cards that act in the chain are important, on dn sometimes the cards are stranded on the feild by laziness, the card resolves goes into the grave, then the next link starts resolving

Yu-Gi-Oh has solid rules that make sense even if they are hard to understand because they are things that can cause a lot of problems if left unresolved.

Things like "Dark Hole is sent to the graveyard AFTER it's effect resolves" and "Dark Hole is sent to the graveyard WHEN it's effect resolves" are things that really DO NOT matter.

It was established (By either the rulebook or a judge)that "When...you can" effects trigger if they were the last to happen. It was a rule that was accepted by those that made it, by those that played and just about everyone that bothered to comprehend the rulings. It was decided that it was a fair rule and many people play by them.

If Dark hole is sent to the graveyard AFTER or ON the effect resolved is something that has yet to cause conflict. In the end, both players comprehend that Dark Hole is sent to the graveyard and no one has to get a headache trying to make something very simple be very complicated when their is absolutely no problem with it either way.

It's like 1 - 1 = 0. Now let's put that math more complicated:

1 - 1 =
+1 + -1=
(+1)+1 + (+1)-1 = 0
End result? Exact same thing, only we made it more complicated. Such small rulings and trying to make sense of them all will only cause problems. The game has rules and they are very good rules IMO, that make sense. Some of them are more confusing than other, but those are caused by wording on card text rather than flaw on the game's rules.

Why can't you negate the Special summon of a monster by solemn warning if it was special summoned by monster reborn?

Because SW can only negate a summon of a monster before it is actually summoned successfully and monster reborn must summon the monster successfully before it completely resolves and other cards can be activated.

What do you mean by "before it is summoned successfully"?

A monster is in a "limbo" (As you would put it) state where it is ABOUT to enter the field. During this moment, your opponent can negate the summon of that monster. If he does, the monster is treated as never entering the field to begin with.

But how can he be about to enter the field if the player already placed him on the field?

Because its far better for the player to simply place the monster on the field, where the opponent can confirm the monster being summoned or the player's commitment to summoning said monster rather than having the player hold the monster in between his hand and the field while the opponent decides whether to respond or not.

The rulebook might not cover all the details, and while somethings aren't made perfectly clear; they are things that will not matter despite how either player perceives it.

The game has solid enough rules for it be competitive.

The game has rules and they are very good rules IMO, that make sense.

0/10

for me when i started to play the hard part to understand how it works was igntion priority (wasnt on the rulebook)





and now the only part hard to remember for me are the 7 substeps

demonwing wrote:

S.S.A. wrote:going to browse the rulebook, to be fair i never have

http://www.yugioh-card.com/en/rulebook/YGO_RuleBook_EN-v8.pdf

dunno what rulebook you guys read but this one described chains and resolutions of chains fairly well, atleast passably well

That is passable?
There is nothing defining when the chain ends. In fact, according to the core rules, spells and traps are sent to the graveyard after its effect resolves, not as any sort of "cleanup step" or anything like that at the end of the chain.

Spoiler:

As such, if you actually read the rules, this is how the following situation:

Player A activates Dark Hole
Player B responds by activating compulsory evacuation device on one of his monsters

would go:

1. compulsory evacuation device effect resolves and, simultaneous, the monster returns to the hand
2. Compulsory evacuation device is sent to the graveyard
3. Dark hole resolves and simultaneously kills everything
4. Dark Hole is sent to the graveyard.
5. Chain ceases existence

Sounds A LOT different then what you guys seem to think happens. Sounds like some judge made up rules to me and everyone looked the other way.

psst thats a chain and you should know chains are made of effects!

after a few posts like that one i started to think you are trolling

i agree, i think hes trolling, also i sent this to one of my friends who plays ygo and mtg and he told me this guys knowledge of mtg is pathetic and he is definitely not a top teir mtg player

no...thats exactly what i think should happen, and exactly the way i play it out in decks like chain burn where the cards that act in the chain are important, on dn sometimes the cards are stranded on the feild by laziness, the card resolves goes into the grave, then the next link starts resolving

The official ruling is that all cards stay on the field until the very end of the chain they are in (or if they are destroyed by some other effect). You are actually playing it incorrectly. . .kinda. . .depending on what set of rules you read.

i sent this to one of my friends who plays ygo and mtg and he told me this guys knowledge of mtg is pathetic and he is definitely not a top teir mtg player

Oh no. A European MtG player calling me trash? Get good kid you're nothing.

please note my timezone...im american...and where is that ruling, in the rulebook it says when it resolves it goes to the grave

How does your timezone define how good of a player you are? ._.

demonwing wrote:

The official ruling is that all cards stay on the field until the very end of the chain they are in (or if they are destroyed by some other effect). You are actually playing it incorrectly. . .kinda. . .depending on what set of rules you read.

Where in the world did you read that? I read both the OCG (with the help of a translator, which really is the same as the TCG rulebook except in japanese) and TCG rulebook and it clearly states that a card is sent to the grave when it resolves.

Saturn wrote:How does your timezone define how good of a player you are? ._.

i dont know, but he called me european because i use the irish flag in the nationality thing because im irish, but i live in america, eastern time zone