Re: Santa's Workshop ~ An Analysis of Wind-Up

**012yArthur0** 2011-10-20, 13:38

You topic makes me think.

With the XYZ revolution around,Synchron decks will actually try to use Archer to make some detachment fun.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-20, 19:17

That's definitely a possibility. However, it's really not that big of a deal, for Wind-Up, at least, because they spam all kinds of Xyz monsters everywhere.

**012yArthur0** 2011-10-21, 11:15

XIVcaliber wrote:That's definitely a possibility. However, it's really not that big of a deal, for Wind-Up, at least, because they spam all kinds of Xyz monsters everywhere.

But this will be actually a must for Synchron Synchro decks. Junk Synchron is always popular with his easy-to-use LVL 5 Syncho Summoning and his Junk+Doppel Combo, which can lead to a Hyper Librarian with 2 tokens ready to synch or a 3100 Atk Junk Warrior ready to make some major beatdown.

Not to mention his Junk Synchros. Which are Destroyer,Warrior and the one of the most important now, Junk Archer.

Archer can actually make a lot of XYZ useless, detaching a Utopia, making him useless, detaching a Leviathan, making his ATK boost reseted, Detaching a Vylon, Removing his 3 Materials OR 2 Materials and the equips. Galaxy-Eyes have a similar effect, no wonder why he is known for be the anti-Xyz in the anime, but instead of activating it, you need to attack.

Junk Archer is like a Chaos Sorcerer for Xyz, they even have the same ATK and DEF. The difference is that you can attack, and it is pretty useless against the other type of monsters, only if you want to open the field and attack for game.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-21, 14:04

This is primarily why I tech Level Limit and Gravity Bind. Synchro decks have never lost viability, and an easy way to counter that is with cards that limit monsters with Levels. A well-timed Level Limit can make an Xyz swarm play into a field-clearing one, since many Synchro monsters have low DEF, and lose their threat level when they can't attack. Even monsters like DAD and Chaos Sorcerer, while able to use their effects under Gravity Bind, can't use their effects on your turn when you're running them over with pretty much any Xyz monster. Gravity Bind also stops Chimeratech Fortress Dragon plays, which can happen due to Wind-Up's Xyz monsters being Machines, making it unable to attack and easy for the pickings with Rank 5 Xyz that have destruction effects (Volcasaurus especially, if your opponent uses three or four monsters for Fortress Dragon's summon. Easy 3000/4000 burn!).

**012yArthur0** 2011-10-21, 15:08

XIVcaliber wrote:This is primarily why I tech Level Limit and Gravity Bind. Synchro decks have never lost viability, and an easy way to counter that is with cards that limit monsters with Levels. A well-timed Level Limit can make an Xyz swarm play into a field-clearing one, since many Synchro monsters have low DEF, and lose their threat level when they can't attack. Even monsters like DAD and Chaos Sorcerer, while able to use their effects under Gravity Bind, can't use their effects on your turn when you're running them over with pretty much any Xyz monster. Gravity Bind also stops Chimeratech Fortress Dragon plays, which can happen due to Wind-Up's Xyz monsters being Machines, making it unable to attack and easy for the pickings with Rank 5 Xyz that have destruction effects (Volcasaurus especially, if your opponent uses three or four monsters for Fortress Dragon's summon. Easy 3000/4000 burn!).

Agreed. But that was a bi*** move Unlimiting Gravity Bind. Now I have to look for ways to deal with them with my Favorites Deck (T.G and Synchron,Synchron Especially,since T.G. Wonder Magician can destroy a Spell/Trap when she enters on the field.)

In short, Synchros still viable, but lost a lot of they powers,especially with Avarice Limit.

I don't know what to do, since I don't like to rely on Mystical Space Typhoon, especially because Synchron decks uses "Tuning", and this can mill them a lot.

Oh yeah, +1 for you post.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-21, 15:14

The guide now includes Wind-Up Rabbit.

I'll be doing more edits when I get back from class.

Thanks for the +1, I'll reply more in depth later, Arthur.

**3E-hero neos** 2011-10-21, 15:16

Just a tip, to stop/slow Level 6+ Synchro monsters, use Grave of the Super Ancient Organism, it's so much better then G-Bind or level Limit B(in my opinion). It's a great way to counter those decks(watch your opponent waste a lot of cards for Junk Destroyer, drop this and troll!
And run 1 Heavy, 2 MST no matter what imo!

Isn't this going a bit off topic anyway, I thought this was a Wind-Up topic.
About those guys, Zenmaighty is a pro spam card, especially in combo with Rat, they are just incredibly fast. Honeybee can speed the deck too, it's so much better then Bat because it Summons and it's a floater. In addition, it's a reason to use One For One.

Just saying.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-21, 17:31

The new Wind-Ups in ORCS, as well as many new tech cards and updated builds, are now covered in the guide. Please continue to suggest things, it's fun discussing this archetype, since it's just so /fun/.

@3E-Hero Neos
If you're going to run Grave of the Super-Ancient Organism, just run Fiendish Chain instead, since it does pretty much the same thing and covers all monsters. Remember that I run Gravity Bind and Level Limit to set up plays, not necessarily counter decks, though it sometimes happens if the opponent blows all their MSTs on Factories. You don't need to run Gravity Bind, in fact, Fiendish Chain would probably be a lot better, but Level Limit is the important one, because it abuses Synchro monsters' lack of DEF.

**012yArthur0** 2011-10-21, 21:34

XIVcaliber wrote:The new Wind-Ups in ORCS, as well as many new tech cards and updated builds, are now covered in the guide. Please continue to suggest things, it's fun discussing this archetype, since it's just so /fun/.

@3E-Hero Neos
If you're going to run Grave of the Super-Ancient Organism, just run Fiendish Chain instead, since it does pretty much the same thing and covers all monsters. Remember that I run Gravity Bind and Level Limit to set up plays, not necessarily counter decks, though it sometimes happens if the opponent blows all their MSTs on Factories. You don't need to run Gravity Bind, in fact, Fiendish Chain would probably be a lot better, but Level Limit is the important one, because it abuses Synchro monsters' lack of DEF.

People will actually try to use Junk Gardna now. I rarely see this card in the game.

Anyway,Nemaines effect destroy himself when there is nothing on the field? Since he can only target himself,it just trigger his effect over and over and over until he is destroyed (Since it still his End Phase)

Anyway, Wind-up will actually go to the meta, if not, it will be one of the funnest Decks, tied with Gagaga.

Wind-up is strong,but not enough. I think we need to wait a little more to see if Konami will release more powerful cards against monster swarm or releasing more powerful monster making swarming a old-dated tatic.

**dabestgamer** 2011-10-21, 22:00

Thought I'd point something out...

I don't think Forbidden Chalice can be used against Stardust, since Chalice only negates effects on the field. Actually, you can but it'd be pointless since Stardust Tributes itself as a Cost and resolves in the Graveyard where Chalice can't touch it.

**3E-hero neos** 2011-10-22, 11:33

012yArthur0 wrote:Wind-up is strong,but not enough. I think we need to wait a little more to see if Konami will release more powerful cards against monster swarm or releasing more powerful monster making swarming a old-dated tatic.

Lol'd.
Summon Rat, summon Rabbit/Dog/Rat.
Summon Zenmaighty.
Detach and Summon Rat.
Use Rat for another level 3, Summon Zenmaighty.
Get a third Rat from Deck, summon Wind-Up Dog, Soldier OR Warrior from the grave.
Use one of their effects.
Swinging Spring Scales, select Rat and Dog/Soldier/Warrior.
Go into a Rank 3 or 5, depends on what the opponent chooses.
Opponent most likely picks level 3, Rank 5 is much ,more powerful, you draw a card.
Now as Rank 3 summon Zenmaines or Leviathan.

2 Cards to get 3 Xyz monsters is funny, you can even get 3 without Scales, but Scales is just good :D.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-22, 16:23

dabestgamer wrote:Thought I'd point something out...

I don't think Forbidden Chalice can be used against Stardust, since Chalice only negates effects on the field. Actually, you can but it'd be pointless since Stardust Tributes itself as a Cost and resolves in the Graveyard where Chalice can't touch it.

Yeah, I need to fix that. That was before I knew how silly Stardust was and how it got around every ruling known to man. It works as an out to Brionac and Trishula, however, along with many other things that stop your plays and many things you just run into and don't want to deal with.

EDIT: I added a Tour Guide build for those of you who want to ruin all good things in life with $400 playsets of cards...

**ktownkid** 2011-10-23, 02:48

Good Article bro

**dabestgamer** 2011-10-23, 16:23

XIVcaliber wrote:Yeah, I need to fix that. That was before I knew how silly Stardust was and how it got around every ruling known to man.

For the record, it's not just Stardust. It's any monster that can send itself to the Graveyard is a Cost. Stardust is just the most common one.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-24, 02:55

dabestgamer wrote:
XIVcaliber wrote:Yeah, I need to fix that. That was before I knew how silly Stardust was and how it got around every ruling known to man.

For the record, it's not just Stardust. It's any monster that can send itself to the Graveyard is a Cost. Stardust is just the most common one.

I realize. Sorry for sounding ignorant. Forbidden Chalice is our substitute for Veiler that we can use to our own advantage, pretty much, since it resets Wind-Up monsters' effects.

Now, onto another topic.

I'm going to stress this again, and I don't know how many times I have to: Tour Guide is not required to run this deck at a competitive level. Let people whine to you about consistency all they want, but Tour Guide doesn't have three Black Whirlwinds, her own auto-Xyz draw card, and free Deck and Graveyard summoning via monster effect AND a theme-specific spell to back her up. In my opinion, Tour Guide just reduces the amount of Wind-Up targets for Factory and Magician. I'm covering her in this guide because people will complain to me if I don't. I'm not trying to convert people to TGUism, though I'm sure my hate of the TCG speaks for that enough.

In lighter news, Rank 3 Xyz monsters have been added to the Extra Deck section.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-10-24, 03:13

What is your thoughts on Swinging Spring Scales?

Most of the opinions I've already seen here seem to be geared on trying to use the card to get the draw instead of the insane utility that I see, and many others I have shown the card off also see the card being another huge push for the deck like Rabbit and Rat already are turning into.

**Roxzen** 2011-10-24, 03:24

Oh, I know what will be awesome for Wind-Up.

Phantom of Chaos. Very Happy

Since Wind-Up can easily go for Leviael, PoC is amazing in copying Rat, Magician, heck even Dog to go to Level 6 for Exabeetle.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-10-24, 03:26

Roxzen wrote:Oh, I know what will be awesome for Wind-Up.

Phantom of Chaos.

Since Wind-Up can easily go for Leviael, PoC is amazing in copying Rat, Magician, heck even Dog to go to Level 6 for Exabeetle.

Dog turns itself into a level 5 with its effect. What does the deck have that could make a rank 6?

**Roxzen** 2011-10-24, 03:28

Unless OP is wrong, Dog says "You can increase this card's Level by 2 and ATK by 600, until the End Phase." So if PoC copies Dog, it'll be a Level 6.

None so far, but there's Chaos Sorc for another easy Level 6. Or you can run Gagaga.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-10-24, 03:30

Roxzen wrote:Unless OP is wrong, Dog says "You can increase this card's Level by 2 and ATK by 600, until the End Phase." So if PoC copies Dog, it'll be a Level 6.

None so far, but there's Chaos Sorc for another easy Level 6. Or you can run Gagaga.

Oh yeah. Didnt think about that.

I'll stick to having more access to Volcasaurus going Shoop da Whoop on faces.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-24, 03:36

Whoa! That was the largest number of replies in this thread in one period of time I've ever seen!

I think Scales is hilarious and amazing. On one hand, you can use it for silly plays with Zenmaighty and forcing your opponent to make the choice between Zenmaines +1 or aforementioned Shoop da Whoop faces on dinosaurs and angel people. It also has a weird synergy with Lavalval Chain, since it can stack your deck. It's a mind-games card, and will be difficult to run unless your deck's engine is air-tight. Luckily, Wind-Up is awesome, and it works out that way.

The Phantom of Chaos tech...I've never even thought of it that way. Good call, Roxzen. I can definitely see some Chaos elements applied to the deck as well, using PoC and Sorc, and Knight being a LIGHT and all. Very interesting. You'd need a different build for it, though. The thought of running Xyz from ranks 3 to 6 in this deck is too cool to pass up.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-10-24, 03:41

XIVcaliber wrote:Whoa! That was the largest number of replies in this thread in one period of time I've ever seen!

I think Scales is hilarious and amazing. On one hand, you can use it for silly plays with Zenmaighty and forcing your opponent to make the choice between Zenmaines +1 or aforementioned Shoop da Whoop faces on dinosaurs and angel people. It also has a weird synergy with Lavalval Chain, since it can stack your deck. It's a mind-games card, and will be difficult to run unless your deck's engine is air-tight. Luckily, Wind-Up is awesome, and it works out that way.

The Phantom of Chaos tech...I've never even thought of it that way. Good call, Roxzen. I can definitely see some Chaos elements applied to the deck as well, using PoC and Sorc, and Knight being a LIGHT and all. Very interesting. You'd need a different build for it, though. The thought of running Xyz from ranks 3 to 6 in this deck is too cool to pass up.

I know you are no fan of TGU, but the card has a little utility and enabling BLS at least. I almost wish the deck had some Darks of its own to use so TGU wasnt needed in the deck.

**Roxzen** 2011-10-24, 03:44

And TGU is instant Zenmaines/Zenmaigthy

**XIVcaliber** 2011-10-24, 03:55

Right. But so is everything else in the deck. The only advantage TGU has is that it can make a Zenmaighty first turn. That's it. Otherwise, it uses up deck space and prevents Factory from having the maximum amount of targets. Call me an idiot, but I hate BLS, too, and I hate that we seem to have this need to enable it in a deck for us to do well at all. We really don't. This banlist is forcing people to pay $450 to play the game, and I don't believe that's how it should go.

Wind-Up does have a DARK, it's just bad compared to the rest of them. It's a shame that Hunter is my favorite art, too...I'm sure we'll either get a new DARK in future sets, or the Tewart Foundation for Broken TCG Exclusives will make one that's...well...broken.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-10-24, 04:40

XIVcaliber wrote:Right. But so is everything else in the deck. The only advantage TGU has is that it can make a Zenmaighty first turn. That's it. Otherwise, it uses up deck space and prevents Factory from having the maximum amount of targets. Call me an idiot, but I hate BLS, too, and I hate that we seem to have this need to enable it in a deck for us to do well at all. We really don't. This banlist is forcing people to pay $450 to play the game, and I don't believe that's how it should go.

Wind-Up does have a DARK, it's just bad compared to the rest of them. It's a shame that Hunter is my favorite art, too...I'm sure we'll either get a new DARK in future sets, or the Tewart Foundation for Broken TCG Exclusives will make one that's...well...broken.

I'm still holding out that there might be something in the TCG exclusives for Order of Chaos to give us that good Dark. Until then, I'll just settle for TGU to enable opening plays into searching with Sangan or Zenmaines.

**gamer14** 2011-11-07, 18:54

well, I went to the sneak peek. Got most of what I needed, except rabbit and zenmaines. Sad

anyone else go?

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-07, 22:16

I went, and got...a Rabbit and a Zenmaines!

Still need one more Rabbit, though. Bummer.

**Roxzen** 2011-11-07, 22:20

XIVcaliber wrote:I went, and got...a Rabbit and a Zenmaines!

Still need one more Rabbit, though. Bummer.

Grats. Also, have you heard of Hunter Hand Destruction?

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-07, 23:08

Yes, I know Hunter has hand destruction properties...

Is it a deck type or something?

**Roxzen** 2011-11-07, 23:17

XIVcaliber wrote:Yes, I know Hunter has hand destruction properties...

Is it a deck type or something?

Yep. You can empty your opponent's hand with Hunter, Rat and Zenmaighty in one turn.

**Karakuri911** 2011-11-07, 23:23

Roxzen wrote:
XIVcaliber wrote:Yes, I know Hunter has hand destruction properties...

Is it a deck type or something?
Yep. You can empty your opponent's hand with Hunter, Rat and Zenmaighty in one turn.

How does that work pray tell?

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-07, 23:38

It requires a very intricate combo using all three Rats from your deck and Grave to abuse Hunter multiple times per turn. If I tried to name the exact moves off the top of my head...I can only get it to loop twice before we run into problems, i.e. needing other cards like Zenmailfunction (punny, KDE, very punny...) or Reborn. But, you can at least give them -2 hand and end the turn with Zenmaines while having a full grave for Avarice/other funny Wind-Up grave things.

-Summon Rat.
-Summon level 3 Wind-Up from Graveyard.
-Overlay for Zenmaighty.
-Detach Rat for Rat from deck.
-Summon Rat from Graveyard.
-Summon Hunter from Graveyard.
-Tribute first Zenmaighty for Hunter's effect, -1 hand
-Overlay Hunter and Rat for Zenmaighty.
-Detach Hunter to summon third Rat from deck.
-Summon Rat from Graveyard.
-Summon Hunter from Graveyard.
-Tribute second Zenmaighty for Hunter's effect, -1 hand
-Overlay Hunter and Rat for Zenmaines.

**Roxzen** 2011-11-07, 23:42

Pojo wrote:"Hunter Loop (I)"
Requires: Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty (field), Wind-Up Hunter (grave or attached to Zenmaighty)

1. Zenmaighty effect; detach Material (if Hunter is attached to Zenmaighty, detach it), special summon Wind-Up Rat.
2. Wind-Up Rat effect; special summon Wind-Up Hunter.
3. Wind-Up Hunter effect; tribute Zenmaighty.
4. Xyz Summon Zenmaighty with Rat and Hunter.
5. Step 1.

Result: depending on number of Rats and Zenmaighty (and the presence of Pot of Avarice), you can send between three and six cards to the graveyard from the opponent's hand.

"Hunter Loop (II)"
Requires: Wind-Up Rabbit (field), Wind-Up Rat (hand), Magician (grave). As long as one is in each, this can be performed. The below explanation presumes this set-up.

1. Summon Wind-Up Rat.
2. Rat effect; special summon Magician.
3. Xyz Summon Wind-Up Carrier Zenmaighty with Rat and Rabbit; Zenmaighty will summon Wind-Up Rat (ii).
4. Magician effect; special summon Hunter.
5. Hunter eff; tribute Magician.
6. Rat eff; special summon Magician.
7. Xyz Summon Zenmaighty with Hunter and Rat; special-summon Wind-Up Rat (iii), detaching Hunter.
8. Rat effect; special summon Hunter.
9. Hunter effect; tribute Zenmaighty.
10. Magician effect; special summon Magician (ii).
11. Xyz a Rank 4 of your choice with Magician and Magician; if Daigusto Emeral, you may extend the loop by returning Rats and Zenmaities back to the deck.
12. Rat+Hunter into a Rank 3 of your choice.

A more detailed version.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-08, 00:23

Fun stuff. Yay Zenmaighty being broken!

**DarkRiku** 2011-11-08, 02:25

Great Article and evil loop. Seems like it is really not that hard to set up either. It is just time consuming.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-11-08, 02:45

Thoughts on Zenmaio?

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-08, 03:09

Zenmaio?

**nsanejokr** 2011-11-08, 03:17

XIVcaliber wrote:Zenmaio?

http://shriek.twoday.net/stories/38726994/

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-08, 03:25

Oh. Wow. Didn't even see him. Effect is decent, having another Rank 5 to kill cards with is always helpful.

Problem is, he only has 2500 ATK...Luckily, he's a Wind-Up, meaning that he can abuse our Whirlwind while killing backrows.

**Ultimate lol** 2011-11-08, 03:38

J4B0i:Zenmaio "Wind-Up 2500/1900. 2 Level 5."

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-11-08, 03:58

They confirmed the stats? Shriek just has it at 2xxx.

I like the effect in the deck more than Adreus. Honestly think that Volca, Tyrus, and Zenmaio are all you really need in terms of Rank 5's

EDIT: I think that is someone just speculating on the stats and summoning conditions. I checked the img that is linked and I cant make out anything on the stats.

**XIVcaliber** 2011-11-08, 14:11

It looks like either 2500 or 2600 to me. Either way, it's still a good card, because he'll act like a third MST for two turns (unless you main 3 MST, in which case he's like a fourth!). Backrow removal in the main deck via monster effect is good no matter what, since all we have is Snail, currently, and it can't really be used for any of our Xyz Summons. It also only bounces cards, which only delays the problem. Zenmaio just says no.

I would actually still run all four. There's no reason to handicap your deck of options, especially when a lot of Rank 4s are more tech than staple.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-11-08, 14:22

Until the stats are actually confirmed by Shriek, I wont be taking posts with claims seriously.

Zenmaio's effect can be used on monsters too, which is why I like it. Tyrus used to he the deck's only way to get sets cleared and and Adreus was always redundant imo with Volcasaurus being available.

**gamer14** 2011-11-09, 18:41

hunter against DW is fun. I was playing a friend, used hunter's effect, and hit Grapha. Very Happy

anyone think giga-brilliant is good for the deck?

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-11-09, 18:53

gamer14 wrote:hunter against DW is fun. I was playing a friend, used hunter's effect, and hit Grapha.

anyone think giga-brilliant is good for the deck?

Nope. Most of the room is being devoted to Wind-Up exceeds. Zenmaighty, Zenmaio, Zenmaines. Possibly even a Zenmaister even. Almost everything else besides those need to be exceeds that help the deck.

**gamer14** 2011-11-10, 18:17

what about IRL? in the U.S.

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-11-10, 18:49

Have to wait for more good Rank 4's come out because Utopia and Roach are not enough and TCG wont have the good stuff until next year.

**DragunityTurbo** 2011-11-18, 16:53

Tour Guide Hunter Setup:
1. Have Wind-Up Hunter in grave
2. Summon Tour Guide
3. Summon Sangan Via Tour Guide
4. XYZ into Zenmaighty (Tour Guide + Sangan)
5. Summon Wind-Up Rat Via Zenmaighty
6. Summon Wind-Up Hunter Via Wind-Up Rat
7. Tribute Zenmaighty for Wind-Up Hunter's effect
8. XYZ into Zenmaighty (Wind-Up Hunter + Wind-Up Rat)
9. Summon Wind-Up Rat Via Zenmaighty
10. Summon Wind-Up Hunter Via Wind-Up Rat
11. Tribute Zenmaighty for Wind-Up Hunter's effect
12. Xyz into Zenmaighty (Wind-Up Hunter + Wind-Up Rat)
13. Summon Wind-Up Rat Via Zenmaighty
14. Summon Wind-Up Hunter Via Wind-Up Rat
15. Tribute Zenmaighty for Wind-Up Hunter's effect
16. XYZ into any Rank 3 XYZ monster (Zenmaines for a wall, Leviathan for attack)

This + T.G. Warwolf and T.G. Striker in the deck make easy synchros and the hunter combo even easier.

**MK_ultra** 2011-11-18, 17:16

Tsunayoshi wrote:Have to wait for more good Rank 4's come out because Utopia and Roach are not enough and TCG wont have the good stuff until next year.

how is utopia not good its a 2500 beat stick but i agree on roach

**Tsunayoshi** 2011-11-18, 17:43

MK_ultra wrote:
Tsunayoshi wrote:Have to wait for more good Rank 4's come out because Utopia and Roach are not enough and TCG wont have the good stuff until next year.
how is utopia not good its a 2500 beat stick but i agree on roach

I only said Utopia was bad hella long time ago, and that was back when it would have been one of only Exceeds around.

Never said it was bad not and I would never run 3 of them. The only Rank 4's I use in the deck right now is Lavaval Chain, Daigusto Emeral, Utopia, and Roach. I let my Rank 3's do most if not all of the work.

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