was a rule change on arcana force dark ruler made ? when? source ?

i was told on the other topic ..(the one it got locked )

arcana force the dark ruler tail effect is trigger now


when this ruling change ?



"Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler's" tails effect does not start a Chain. If "Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler" is destroyed by battle, all other cards on the field are destroyed when "Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler" is sent to the Graveyard.
(source netrep.net)

i know the effect will trigger if destroyed by effect too


i was told on the other topic it doesn work like this did this card had a rule change ?


the other topic was locked without even explaining to me the source for the rule change

that is a previously official ruling

while I often go with them when there is nothing other, not this time. The way it is worded alone is enough to see, that it is a mandatory trigger effect.

And it doesn't matter how it is destroyed, the only trigger condition is that it is destroyed. Oh, and you said yourself, it is triggered.

The thing I mentioned there is, that the effect of arcana call doesn't last until that moment. The effect triggers in the grave, arcana call doesn't affect the monster there, so the other arcana force monster can't trigger dark rulers effect because it no longer has dark rulers effect.

i said trigger because i have no idea which word to use when dealing with this type of effects


i know it doesnt have the same wording but there are other cards with a 'looks like trigger' texts and were ruled as continuous




and as far as i know no announcements were made about all card rulings changing after what happened with UDE(they really need to start working on this )



(i still dont know what happens with crystal beasts vs fissure now )

you just said what fit the most here, and that is naturally trigger. Just think of that

and what continous effect sounds like trigger for you? If, then it is most propably bkss, but there is no ruling from konami about that as far as I know. (at least wikia doesn't list any)
Or it is not even bkss and I can show you that it is actually worded as continous, just not as clear as most others.

The most confusing example I could figgure is The Fabled Unicore. Its effect may sound like a trigger at first, but when you pay closer attention to the text you can read that it is continous.

But in this case there simply is no doubt because it is worded just like any other trigger: If/When Situation X happens, do this.

and as for cb vs fissure: CB in s/t zone are not monsters, so they are not affected by fissure. It is as simple as that.

dest wrote:
and what continous effect sounds like trigger for you?

Call of the Haunted

If/When Situation X happens this card is removed from the field, do this destroy the monster.

there are other cards with similar effects and cont.

Berzerker gorila

If this card is in face-up Defense Position on the field, destroy this card.


machina gearframe (If the equipped monster would be destroyed, destroy this card instead)


and i remember being told about six sams

If this card would be destroyed, you can destroy another "Six Samurai" monster you control instead.

effect being continuous too

wow, from a simple question to such a hard to explain thing... I'll try it^^

you really have to learn to read carefully and differ. Ok, I see what you mean and that the fast example I thought of may not be the best, but with some practise you'll get it somehow.

Six Sams/Unions:
Their effect kicks in when they would be destroyed. A trigger effect can't be activated within the resolution of a chain (that said, whenever they would be destroyed by a card effect) so it simply MUST be continous in order for it to be applied. Not triggered. Just applied. At the same time, the state of "i'm going to be destroyed now" is a state that just applies, see gorilla for more explanation about that. So there is no way around that. Every effect, that has "destroy card x/this card instead of this card/card x" must be that way, else the effect just can't happen. That is for Samurai as well as unions.

Gorilla:
Read carefully and you'll see that it is continous and clearly not trigger. That continous effect:
If/When that Situation is applied, [thing happens]
While a trigger says:
If/When that Situation happens, [thing happens]
I'll transform Gorilla into a trigger, lets see if that would help you.
Normal effect (cont) : If this card is in face-up Defense Position on the field, destroy this card.
Trigger effect: If this card is switched to face-up Defense Position, destroy this card.

I hope you see the difference: While being face up on the field is just a state that applies to a monster, switching it to def is an action that happens which can be respond to.

Lets look at your question about dark ruler, look at that effect:
If this card is destroyed, destroy all cards on the field.
Destruction can't last more than that one moment it happens.

Now for call of the haunted:
Don't compare its wording with monster effects. It is a continous trap card and as a continous trap card its effect is naturaly continous.

Of course I know:
There are continous trap cards which have effects that start a chain. But those are effects that can simply be seen by the wording of the card.
Example:
Ultimate Offering: You can pay 500 Life Points to Normal Summon or Set 1 extra monster.
You see, paying something to do another thing is something that can't work without a chain link. It is as simple as that.


...

I think I might need to write an article about that, this is only an ultra short explanation of that whole thing...

Just take Absolute Zero as a obvious example: Zero's last effect is continuous or trigger?

uh
zero isnt doesnt have the same text



and didnt someone said konami doesnt have a contradicting ruling for this ?

then why you say the one on netrep was changed if you are saying at the same time konami didnt say anything about it ?



this isnt the only card with TCG only ruling
i know there are many other cards with TCG rulings and without any new ruling from konami


i mean what happens with cards like this one ? (with only TCG ruling)

if arcana dark ruler was changed does it mean zombie master can summon a zombie even if removed from the field before its effect resolves ?( thats a TCG only ruling and there isnt any ruling on the OCG about this either )



because the only reason people say dark ruler is trigger now is because the other ruling was a TCG only one




so what this means ?


what happened to all the ruling for old cards ?

you don't seem to understand me...

I don't say, that it is wrong because it is TCG only. I say it it wrong because it simply contrdicts with every general gameplay logic, why and how I explained in the last post.

The only ruling I found is from UDE, not Konami. That are 2 different things, UDE is no longer official. I don't know where netrep gets its rulings from but according to the wording it is the same unofficial ruling, so the same source, UDE.

Don't understand me wrong, not every unofficial ruling is false. It's the opposite, most are still right. But there are some rulings that simply contradict and don't fit into the general gameplay. I wouldn't pay attention to those, really. That are not BKSS, that are BUSS (Because UDE said so^^) and most propably the reason why Konami said "those are unofficial".

As for Zombie Master:
From pure logic it would still get its effect when something is chained that removes him from the field. The only thing is, that even Konami seems to say that the monster is not special summoned, at least the wc11 game. So, just live with it. There is no explanation for that. BKSS.

raidou wrote:uh
zero isnt doesnt have the same text



and didnt someone said konami doesnt have a contradicting ruling for this ?

then why you say the one on netrep was changed if you are saying at the same time konami didnt say anything about it ?



this isnt the only card with TCG only ruling
i know there are many other cards with TCG rulings and without any new ruling from konami


i mean what happens with cards like this one ? (with only TCG ruling)

if arcana dark ruler was changed does it mean zombie master can summon a zombie even if removed from the field before its effect resolves ?( thats a TCG only ruling and there isnt any ruling on the OCG about this either )



because the only reason people say dark ruler is trigger now is because the other ruling was a TCG only one




so what this means ?


what happened to all the ruling for old cards ?

Zero's effect does trigger....

Arcana's effect also triggers to destroy the field. There are only a few cards "Cursed fig" That can have continuous effects while in the grave.

Arcana's effect to destroying your half of the field triggers When it gets destroyed... Why is this so hard to understand?

Its basics like Dest is answering... Not yugioh rocket science..

what i mean is this card has a ruling making it so it doesnt use the chain
dest says the rule changed but he wont tell me the source of the change


i checked netrep and shriektcg and all i can find is this one


http://shriektcg.twoday.net/stories/4903032/


"Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler's" tails effect does not start a Chain. If "Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler" is destroyed by battle, all other cards on the field are destroyed when "Arcana Force EX - The Dark Ruler" is sent to the Graveyard.






i even tried googling 'arcana force ex dark ruler ruling change' and couldnt find anything about it



another proof text doesnt always tell you an effect uses the chain/ trigger or doesnt use the chain/ continuous

When this face-up card you control is targeted by an opponent's Effect Monster's effect, look at your opponent's hand and discard 1 card from their hand.

thats machina fortress text

this is its ruling

When this card is targeted by an opponent’s Effect Monster’s effect, you look at the opponent’s hand and discard 1 card from it immediately before resolving the effect of the Effect Monster. For example, if “Machina Fortress” is targeted by your opponent’s “Brionac, Dragon of the Ice Barrier” you first decide whether or not you want to Chain any effects. Then, when you go to resolve the effect of Brionac, first look at your opponent’s hand and discard 1 card from it. Finally, resolve Brionac’s effect and return “Machina Fortress” to your hand.[1]

When "Machina Fortress" is targeted by an opponent's monster's effect, its effect which discards a card from your opponent's hand does not start a Chain Link

you cant always trust the text to tell if a monster effect uses the chain or not

they just gives us a ruling instead of a clear text

I can't tell you a source because there is none...

But just read again what I said about those prev official rulings and about netrep.

Why fortress is ruled this way... I don't know, I can only guess that konami propably wanted the player to be able to chain directly to the targeted effect, bevore fortress takes up the link.
Well, BKSS then.

Sure, you brought that perfectly right example of konami saying othervise. The thing with dark ruler is, that Konami didn't say othervise, UDE said othervise. UDE is not Konami. It is as simple as that.

k about another card


zombie master ruling about needing to be face up to resolve is an UDE ruling too

so did it change too ?

what we do when we find rulings like this ones rulings made by UDE different than the one konami has or like dark ruler when there isnt a OCG ruling

when there isn't an ocg ruling, just go with common sense. As said, usually those prev official rulings reflect common sense, but this is one of the times where it doesn't.

As said, there is nothing written about Konami saying othervise about Zombie Master. There is also common sense which would allow him to get his effect. BUT wc11 says, that he doesn't get his effect, so you could presume, that Konami agrees with UDE here, although nothing is written about that.

When there are rulings from both sides, UDE and Komani, always go with Konami. Then you are on the safe side.
Of course you can always look up UDEs rulings also, just use a good amount of common sense when reading them and you are fine

k and when we have contradicting rules made by UDE we go by OCG


did you know the rulings on crystal beasts vs D fissure contradict each other ?

on the OCG CB monsters get RFG but for TCG (UDE) they go to grave because they arent treated as monsters while in the field

i found that funny because now they ruled the Xyz materials go to grave (vs fissure)

This entire thread is bollocks.

Dark Ruler's Tails effect should not start a chain link according to OCG sources.

Because the previously official TCG rulings agree with OCG sources, there is no reason to assume the previously official TCG ruling is incorrect.

Therefore, DN will presume the previously official TCG ruling is correct - meaning that every post between this post and the first post has been a waste of time.

and where is this ocg source?
and why should it be like that?

Konami's hotline is the OCG source.

There is no need to explain "why" - Konami is free to write effects in whatever style it chooses, and then have them work in whatever way it chooses.

As for why DN chooses rulings to follow based upon the circumstances laid out, it's because we would be idiots to expect people to keep informed of OCG rulings: the bulk of our players do not speak Japanese, and we cannot expect them to have someone handy to translate the sources for them, AND we should not have to put them through that much trouble anyway for English-print cards. As a result, we always default to TCG rulings and sources where possible.

The only reason Konami's OCG hotline is important here is because Konami's TCG branch has deemed all old UDE rulings as "no longer official" - meaning that the ruling needs some support from an official source somewhere in order to carry weight.

or to explain in short, bkss^^

ok then, just had no idea that such a statement exists from them.

For why I asked "why" is, when I get corrected for something I've always thought I'd know for sure (and get support from several other sides^^) then I'd like to read a reason for that, even if that is only a source or bkss

Pharaoh Atem wrote:Konami's hotline is the OCG source.

There is no need to explain "why" - Konami is free to write effects in whatever style it chooses, and then have them work in whatever way it chooses.

As for why DN chooses rulings to follow based upon the circumstances laid out, it's because we would be idiots to expect people to keep informed of OCG rulings: the bulk of our players do not speak Japanese, and we cannot expect them to have someone handy to translate the sources for them, AND we should not have to put them through that much trouble anyway for English-print cards. As a result, we always default to TCG rulings and sources where possible.

The only reason Konami's OCG hotline is important here is because Konami's TCG branch has deemed all old UDE rulings as "no longer official" - meaning that the ruling needs some support from an official source somewhere in order to carry weight.

konami hotline ? is one of those japanese websites we cant use to ask about rulings ?



the only reason i miss UDE is the nice forum they had for ruling questions why there isnt one now for TCG?

Oh, and Zombie Master's problem solving text does say it needs to be face-up.
So that solves the problem

Pharaoh Atem wrote:Konami's hotline is the OCG source.
The only reason Konami's OCG hotline is important here is because Konami's TCG branch has deemed all old UDE rulings as "no longer official" - meaning that the ruling needs some support from an official source somewhere in order to carry weight.

You could always test UDE rulings with WC11 and see if they work.

Mr. Striker wrote:

Pharaoh Atem wrote:Konami's hotline is the OCG source.
The only reason Konami's OCG hotline is important here is because Konami's TCG branch has deemed all old UDE rulings as "no longer official" - meaning that the ruling needs some support from an official source somewhere in order to carry weight.

You could always test UDE rulings with WC11 and see if they work.

You should know that WC2011 follows the OCG rulings, not UDE. Actually, all Yu-Gi-Oh! video games follow the OCG rulings.