A SOLEMN WARNING (and some others negation) ruling you might not know.

Hunter_13 wrote:i dont know why to do that much of explanation, the rule of SW is so easy to understand:

"When you activate a Spell or Trap Card that targets, you choose the target(s) when you activate the card, before your opponent decides whether or not to Chain to it. So if you want to negate the activation of a card like "Monster Reborn" or "Call of the Haunted" with "Solemn Warning", you must chain "Solemn Warning" after "Monster Reborn"/"Call of the Haunted" have declared a monster in the graveyard as a target.[3]"

this is kinda why I stopped reading I started wondering why such a huge explanation was needed ._. The way I interpret it is ... If a card is going to special summon something you can pay 2,000 lp to negate the card.... But once the card is summoned you can't anymore ...

clear and easy

you may understand that but more than 70% of duelists out there (at least the ones in DN) only use warning when the opponent already summoned the fusion/ritual/whatever. Even if you ask them if poly/ritual/reborn/whatever is OK and they say YES they still have the audacity to activate warning on the monster summoned. Another thing that there should be here is a similar thread but about what you cannot negate with stardust and cards that have a similar effect (such as my body as a shield) since it's been like over 10 times since i have explained that Shield and Stardust cannot negate Vylon Matter and it's getting really annoying.

Zephyr wrote:you may understand that but more than 70% of duelists out there (at least the ones in DN) only use warning when the opponent already summoned the fusion/ritual/whatever. Even if you ask them if poly/ritual/reborn/whatever is OK and they say YES they still have the audacity to activate warning on the monster summoned. Another thing that there should be here is a similar thread but about what you cannot negate with stardust and cards that have a similar effect (such as my body as a shield) since it's been like over 10 times since i have explained that Shield and Stardust cannot negate Vylon Matter and it's getting really annoying.

I understand that ._. I personally am not very good with rulings they confuse me a lot ... So I read up what I can make sure I'm doing something correctly ... Like before I would activate mirror force and my opponent would activate warning and tell me it cancels and I'd go ._. ok and then proceed to cry in my corner about my mirror force being negated =( .. But now I know that warning only works with stuff that will summon a monster, so I'd way otherwise... Then someone tells me that When I return a fortune lady light from my field to my hand to special summon that one bird tuner ... And i cant, still activate lights cause light missed her timing then I'll just roll with... Nod my head and say ok since I have no idea what the ruling on that is... But most people that don't know rulings won't bother reading a huge post such as this plus me reading most of that it got to the point where it just confused me more than I was before reading it so I just said ok I'll keep it as reference and if I ever need something cleared up I'll come read up on that.

From reading the first post I think OP's mistake was dueling The Zombie Guy. From my lurkings on Pojo I concluded he is an enormous tool.

As for the issue of Solemn, that is good to know. I will be sure to remember that in the future. Still can't see myself using it as I'm not comfortable with paying a large sum of life points for an advantage I may not keep.

Nice explanation o:

LuzCeleste wrote:I understand that ._. I personally am not very good with rulings they confuse me a lot ... So I read up what I can make sure I'm doing something correctly ... Like before I would activate mirror force and my opponent would activate warning and tell me it cancels and I'd go ._. ok and then proceed to cry in my corner about my mirror force being negated =( .. But now I know that warning only works with stuff that will summon a monster, so I'd way otherwise... Then someone tells me that When I return a fortune lady light from my field to my hand to special summon that one bird tuner ... And i cant, still activate lights cause light missed her timing then I'll just roll with... Nod my head and say ok since I have no idea what the ruling on that is... But most people that don't know rulings won't bother reading a huge post such as this plus me reading most of that it got to the point where it just confused me more than I was before reading it so I just said ok I'll keep it as reference and if I ever need something cleared up I'll come read up on that.

1) Solemn warning only negates card with special summon effect... its doesn't have punctation after "negate spell/trap"

You have been trolled by your opp.

2) Miss the timing is quite tricky one... I also too having hard time with this.

Cards like Dupe frogs, The shining, Lady Light, gishkies, cross porter and any other similiar miss the timings because they have word "can"

"Can" in the cards means optional effect, that they WILL miss the timing if they aren't last thing happens
Example: The shinings, Dupe Frog, Gishkies, Lady Light... etc...

Cards without "can" word are mandatory effect, they ALWAYS get their effect regardless what happen. (Mostly...)
Example: Reborn tengu, Sangan

No worries about miss the learning, every big leap or journey to the thousands miles were started with small step

Tips: Playing YGO on nDS/PSP would help greatly to your rulings knowledgement. But still experience is the most important factor, nDS/PSP only the booster

How does Solemn Warning work with something like Pyramid of Light where I can Special Summon Andro Sphinx and Sphinx Teleia at the cost of 500 Life Points when it's on the field?

Solemn Warning Negates LaDD.
LaDD Then specials a Monster from the graveyard.
Most people don't know this.
LaDD = Light And Darkness Dragon

@thomas:
As you cann't negate monster summoned by other card effect

You have to negate the spell/trap card, not monster isself.

My bet, Since it continous like Field Spells... you cann't negate it with warning. Cuz I personally never warninged or meet someone using Pyramid of Light

@statis:
Because that summoning effect doesn't require LaDD to be on field, it will active if its get destroyed, same as Yubel if I recall correctly

HarleyThomas wrote:How does Solemn Warning work with something like Pyramid of Light where I can Special Summon Andro Sphinx and Sphinx Teleia at the cost of 500 Life Points when it's on the field?

if I read correctly it should work same as with fields and continous spells such as water hazard or fusion gate ... So something that lingers on the field and later summons something can not be negated by warning ... If it works for fields and continous spells I don't see why it shouldn't apply to continous traps.

Interesting. I may have to use my Pyramid of Light deck in rated duels.

also we need to understand that before asking the opp if poly/mons.reborn/etc its ok, we must activate the card and designate the target/targets of the card, not only say "i activate monster reborn" ok? and put the spell card on the field... the user must activate the card and designate the target cuz no one know what will the opp have in the field or hand (for example the transmigration prophecy in the field or D.D crow in hand), its a general rule but few people do things that way, they only activate the card without designing the target... but once this is done, the opp chooses if chain or not, and once the monster hits the field, solemn warning no longer works..

Poly is different from monster reborn, you didn't say the target unlike monster reborn or call of the haunted

So if poly got negated, you didn't send materials to graveyard

Neither miracle reborn, so if you respond with D.D. Crow, you remove the monster first, then proceed with fusion summoning.


Different from Pot of Avarice, you actually have to pick the 5 target first before you add them to deck, not instantly put back them to deck, because if you respon with D.D. crow, they pick target first, and then you can remove one of that 5 targets. (So, not single cards return to deck, AT ALL)
Another example would be card like transmigration break its it rare to people use such card.

Also another chaining case... opp often use mosnter reborn and summoning the monster from my grave without saying the target. While I had Call of the haunted facedown...
^ this often make me lose the game because that way make me keep forgoting chain my coth to opp monster reborn targeting my monster.

I usually go ahead and carry on with Monster reborn and pick without asking if it's ok or not, if they activate a trap while I'm picking or after I have already summoned I'd just assume they activated it on Reborn and not on the summon...

Same with Poly, I'll send to grave then if they activate warning I'll just bring my monsters back and assume they activated it on Poly and not the actual summon.

Another question: This one concerning Assualt Mode Activate.

If it's activated, can Solemn Warning be chained to it negating the summon as well as getting rid of whatever monster the one using it is trying to get the Assualt Mode for since costs still have to be paid?

Mmm.... that would be 2 different question

1)Solem Warning
Its have to be chained to "Assault Mode Activate" if you want negate it, not the monster since you can not negate summon by other card effect.

2)Cost
Usually cost is something you pay for activating a card, but not long time ago.. I got consufed someone said if X (forgot what card) was negated, you didn't pay the cost beacuse its negated. (Gotta search the forums)

I could be wrong... but generally was thinking even its negated, you still paid the cost.

Well.. after this got answered clearly, I will add Assault Mode Activate explaination on page 1

So.. anyone else want clarify/giving addition info about "assault mode activate" ?

kangtuji wrote:Mmm.... that would be 2 different question
2)Cost
Usually cost is something you pay for activating a card, but not long time ago.. I got consufed someone said if X (forgot what card) was negated, you didn't pay the cost beacuse its negated. (Gotta search the forums)

Costs are never negated.

If the card you are talking about in the quote was Morphtronic Accelerator, it has no cost even though the wording looks like there is. Do not ask me why, for I have no clue why the official ruling was done this way.

So Warning will negate Assualt Mode Activate and effectively get rid of a possibly problematic monster and keep another one from comming out?

That's fantastic!

So let me get this straight.

Warning can not negate the monster Special Summoned by a Spell/trap/monster.
But it can negate Normal/flip/special(Cyber dragon etc.)
I understand Warning cannot negate the summon of a monster summoned by Poly Etc. but can negate the poly itself.
Is the Poly case the same with the Monster Reborn? Can negate spell, but not the monster summon?
I just need Yes/No answers to these

all the same -> summon due to a card effect can't be negated, you must negate the card

[14 Nov 2011] Update #46 : Adding SKYSCRAPPER 2, INFERNITY LAUNCHER and ASSAULT MODE ACTIVATE
moving Saber Hole to same category as TKRO/Black Horn/Solemn

Probably will add for grapha later....

Not sure how it works...

grapha is ruled as an inherent summon...

Then what happen to monster on the field if grapha summon wasn't by effect ? Returning monster to hand is "cost" ?




So ... bacisally grapha was negated after it "hit" field, not when active in graveyard ?

kangtuji wrote:

LuzCeleste wrote:I understand that ._. I personally am not very good with rulings they confuse me a lot ... So I read up what I can make sure I'm doing something correctly ... Like before I would activate mirror force and my opponent would activate warning and tell me it cancels and I'd go ._. ok and then proceed to cry in my corner about my mirror force being negated =( .. But now I know that warning only works with stuff that will summon a monster, so I'd way otherwise... Then someone tells me that When I return a fortune lady light from my field to my hand to special summon that one bird tuner ... And i cant, still activate lights cause light missed her timing then I'll just roll with... Nod my head and say ok since I have no idea what the ruling on that is... But most people that don't know rulings won't bother reading a huge post such as this plus me reading most of that it got to the point where it just confused me more than I was before reading it so I just said ok I'll keep it as reference and if I ever need something cleared up I'll come read up on that.

1) Solemn warning only negates card with special summon effect... its doesn't have punctation after "negate spell/trap"

You have been trolled by your opp.

2) Miss the timing is quite tricky one... I also too having hard time with this.

Cards like Dupe frogs, The shining, Lady Light, gishkies, cross porter and any other similiar miss the timings because they have word "can"

"Can" in the cards means optional effect, that they WILL miss the timing if they aren't last thing happens
Example: The shinings, Dupe Frog, Gishkies, Lady Light... etc...

Cards without "can" word are mandatory effect, they ALWAYS get their effect regardless what happen. (Mostly...)
Example: Reborn tengu, Sangan

No worries about miss the learning, every big leap or journey to the thousands miles were started with small step

Tips: Playing YGO on nDS/PSP would help greatly to your rulings knowledgement. But still experience is the most important factor, nDS/PSP only the booster

If you're gonna try and give people lessions about the game than at least do it properly, it's not the word "can" that ,means it misses timing. Optional trigger effects are divided into:

If....you can...

And

When...you can...


Effects that say "When...you can..." are the ones that miss timing. "You can" Simply means an effect is optional

i may missed it but just in case

solem warning and any counter traps able to negate a normal summon cant be used in response to a summon by ultimate offering or Mausoleum of the Emperor

right. At least for the TCG.
In the OCG you may negate those summons (the actual summons, not only the effect), at least formula/offering. No idea how it is ruled with the mausoleum, but I asume it is the same. Too lazy to look at it atm^^

kangtuji wrote:Then what happen to monster on the field if grapha summon wasn't by effect ? Returning monster to hand is "cost" ?




So ... bacisally grapha was negated after it "hit" field, not when active in graveyard ?

The way it is supposed to work is that if Grapha is negated, the monster that was to be bounced goes no where.

There is a BKSS ruling that makes the bounce act like a cost even though they specifically go out of the way to say its not a cost.

thats how the game works dont call it BKSS

its the same as quickdraw /tricky discard red eyes banishing a dragon to SS

lava golem tributing 2 of the opponent monsters ( i could go on) .....dont call game mechanic on inherent summons a BKSS

ruling for specific cards contradicting existing ones are BKSS

But what about the part of Solemn Warning that says "includes an effect that Special Summons a monster(s)"?

There is where I am confused the most. Because I remember seeing somewhere than Warning can hit Macro Cosmos for that reason.

Grapha works the way Machina Fortress works. Its an inherent summon with the wording of it as opposed to an effect.

The only thing that is BKSS is the fact that bouncing the DW monster isn't a cost.

Because it is an inherent summon, the monster is bounced and Grapha hits the field. Then Warning would negate the summon.

If it were an effect, and the bounce was not considered a cost, then it would work the way you said.

But the fact its not considered a cost regardless of whether Grapha is an effect or not is BKSS, as it needs to happen before the summon takes place. It should be the same result whether it is inherent or an effect.

i never heard of any inherent summon having a cost

which ones are you talking about?


and how does it make a difference for inherent summons(or other cards ) the fact its a cost or not

Machina Fortress is an inherent summon which discards as a cost. There are other examples, but are minor, such as The Tricky.

Also, for inherent summons it makes no difference. For effects, however, it does since it determines when the summon is negated and what happens to other cards involved.

Example:

Take Quickdraw Synchron and The Fabled Chawa. The first is inherent, and the second an effect. Neither one has an actual cost. One is part of the summoning condition, the other is part of an effect. But the wording on both say it happens at the same time.

For the first, you would Solemn Warning it when it hits the field, which means sending the card has already taken place.

For the second, you would chain Solemn Warning to the effect of The Fabled Chawa in the hand. Because the effect is negated, the discard never happens.


For Chawa, if the discard was a cost, it would happen first much like any cost, and would be discarded in the same manner if it were an inherent summon.


The reason why I point out the similarities between the two is that there is very little current distinction between a cost and a summoning condition. The only difference is this: A cost happens before the summon. A condition is applied at the time of the summon. In both cases, cards are lost when negated and the negation happens on the field.


For an effect, it differs like this: A cost happens before the effect. Any cost-like things which happen as a part of the effect happens only during resolution. In the first case, a card is lost. In the second, only the negated card is lost. And in both these cases, the cards are negated where they are activated.

See the difference?

For Grapha, an inherent summon will result in the same thing when he's negated, though the timing is slightly different. If its an effect, and if bouncing the monster is a cost, then the monster will still be bounced after negation. If its an effect, and bouncing the monster is considered as part of the effect (much like Chawa and the discard), then the monster will remain on the field when Grapha is negated.

dabestgamer wrote:But what about the part of Solemn Warning that says "includes an effect that Special Summons a monster(s)"?

There is where I am confused the most. Because I remember seeing somewhere than Warning can hit Macro Cosmos for that reason.

Thats because Macro Cosmos would SS upon activation of the card itself. If the card would SS at any other time, then it cannot be negated by Solemn Warning.

I've been saying for a while that Konami made another bad ruling to cover for the fact they dont wanna errata a card. Grapha's SS from the grave is all effect.

It is not worded as a cost to spin a monster. Yet they want it treated like a cost.

Then again, people like to say I am wrong or ride on Konami because they believe they can do no wrong.

Tsunayoshi wrote:I've been saying for a while that Konami made another bad ruling to cover for the fact they dont wanna errata a card. Grapha's SS from the grave is all effect.
It is not worded as a cost to spin a monster. Yet they want it treated like a cost.
Then again, people like to say I am wrong or ride on Konami because they believe they can do no wrong.

Konami does wrong, but they rule the game. Disagree all you desire, but, in the end, correct and false are their domain.

Too bad they make faulty rulings on purpose and do nothing to correct anything even they know is wrong even by their standard.

Grapha is an inherent summon, the monster must be bounced. Just like the monsters must be banished to summon Chaos Sorc.

It was worded with the problem solving text. It has no colons or semi colons. There is no ruling question.

Miror B. wrote:Grapha is an inherent summon, the monster must be bounced. Just like the monsters must be banished to summon Chaos Sorc.

It was worded with the problem solving text. It has no colons or semi colons. There is no ruling question.

Except there is a ruling, and its incorrect.

Not going to argue the point further since you proved your lack of knowledge on rulings and overall usefulness of cards already today.

Tsunayoshi wrote:

Miror B. wrote:Grapha is an inherent summon, the monster must be bounced. Just like the monsters must be banished to summon Chaos Sorc.

It was worded with the problem solving text. It has no colons or semi colons. There is no ruling question.

Except there is a ruling, and its incorrect.

Not going to argue the point further since you proved your lack of knowledge on rulings and overall usefulness of cards already today.

Where's the incorrect ruling? Tell me and I can actually argue.

so all this mess is because tsuna doesnt know how to read problem solving text ?



if i remember it right is

condition: activation ;effect/resolution


use it to read grapha.....


and go and check any other monster with inherent summons involving discarding sending to grave or releasing monsters you wont find a single one allowing you to keep the card if the summon is negated

No such thing for Grapha's SS effect though.

RTFC before you claim someone cant read.

Tsunayoshi wrote:No such thing for Grapha's SS effect though.

RTFC before you claim someone cant read.

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/articles/?p=3111#more-3111

Read, learn.

Go right ahead and link to the people that dont know how to even make correct rulings to save their life.

Now I know without a fact you are as bad as the other moron you are siding with. Incorrect ruling is incorrect and obvious effect is very obvious.

/discussion.

Tsunayoshi wrote:Go right ahead and link to the people that dont know how to even make correct rulings to save their life.

Now I know without a fact you are as bad as the other moron you are siding with. Incorrect ruling is incorrect and obvious effect is very obvious.

/discussion.

As I see it, you refuse to take any proof and demand you are right. So I agree, /discussion.

Tsuna. In this case Grapha's an inherent summon. They are trying to use the new "Problem-Solving Text" to define what is an effect and what is not. In the case of Grapha, it is not an effect but a condition to SS himself. Its only an effect if there were a colon/ semi-colon there. In this case it is not.

--- And even if it were an effect, bouncing the monster would still be a cost by the wording, meaning that you would still lose the monster on the field. ----

This isn't a case of bad rulings here with Grapha. Only that they should reprint older cards to make things like this much clearer.

Also, the only Ruling conflict I see is the one about Dark Ruler Hades negating the SS effect since its SS is inherent based on the wording on the card and not an effect.

Update:

Adding evolzar laggia

<img src=http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1531c5cb42a2f862cb0c2d0a0283783030ea203c51fde6f1e9b531b5ed2012746g.jpg width=540>

he tried to chain it to super poly?

Well, he tries to negate nova master summon instead the spell cards AFTER he learn he cann't negate super poly.